pure improvisation

[Kelly Ripa's Bicep]

I think I've observed in the last 11 pages that the more rigidly one follows a logical thought to it's inevitable conclusion, the more absurd one becomes, whether it's strict definitions of genre or what 'pure' improvisation is. This is music after all, if it were possible to express it with words, we wouldn't need to play it. or listen to it.

[Charon]

Oh no! Not this thread again!

I just thought I'd leave a little message here about the Collected Solos Project, which has just been released on [Array]. For those who might have been curious about what I was on about in this thread (or elsewhere), this project is my answer. It is a 26-disc pursuit of improvisation in the absolute, accompanied by an 87-page journal and specially created artwork, which is available in both a physical version and as a free download.

[leroysghost]

Three posts is a crowd dude...

[Charon]

Three posts is a crowd dude...

hey, think of it as one for each year I spent working on this thing (even then there'd be time to spare)

[normalioifyp]

This is the most absurd thread I have ever read. You all have managed to turn a language game into a pissing contest. I consider it my role to make noise, and let the academic assholes call it whatever they want. Terms like EFI, and even "Jazz" have lost much of their meaning.

[Dan Warburton]

This is the most absurd thread I have ever read.

Oh, have a trawl through the archives and you'll find plenty of even more entertaining ones

You all have managed to turn a language game into a pissing contest. I consider it my role to make noise, and let the academic assholes call it whatever they want. Terms like EFI, and even "Jazz" have lost much of their meaning.

Odd that you put "jazz" in inverted commas and not EFI or noise. Any particular reason for that?

[leroysghost]

pissing contest.

and you showed up almost two years late to the match, so what does tha make you? All the academic assholes are gonna think yr a pussy now.

[mudd]

i don't mind reopening a thread, but let's not do it like this.

m

[jon abbey]

this thread left off in late 2009, but I think maybe a more accurate term than 'pure' would be 'puritanical'. here is a post from May 2010 from a different thread where I touched on that:

http://ihatemusic.noquam.com/viewtopic. ... 81#p199181

[Charon]

'puritanical' is a very inflammatory word to use, Jon. I don't really like 'pure' either, but at least it's less churlish

[Wombatz]

Out of curiosity: what's your rationale behind such a massive release? You say it's a "26-disc pursuit of improvisation in the absolute." So you're not sending a postcard here or dropping an mp3 there from your pursuit, instead you're binding your complete diaries into one massive volume, which I as the listener have to encounter as a WORK. As it is, I won't listen to a single note of it, it feels pointless to begin, but I guess that's ok, I'm sure you don't do this because you expect people to make you their life study. Still, if I were able to listen through all of that, you'd of course be nothing but a slim bundle of licks to me ... shouldn't that be something you'd rather avoid?

[Charon]

Out of curiosity: what's your rationale behind such a massive release?

I explain this in the preface, but I wanted a longer snapshot than is generally available, among other things to explore this idea of 'stagnation'. I wanted to push myself to pursue total improvisation for a long period of time, to see whether the possibilities really were endless, and found that they are (you'll have to take my word on that, since you're not going to listen to/read it)

Still, if I were able to listen through all of that, you'd of course be nothing but a slim bundle of licks to me ... shouldn't that be something you'd rather avoid?

What makes you think I'd be nothing but a 'slim bundle of licks'? have a listen and you'll see that's not what happens.

[Wombatz]

Still, if I were able to listen through all of that, you'd of course be nothing but a slim bundle of licks to me ... shouldn't that be something you'd rather avoid?

What makes you think I'd be nothing but a 'slim bundle of licks'? have a listen and you'll see that's not what happens.

I as a listener do not have the limitless creative resources that I'm sure you as a player have.

[Charon]

Still, if I were able to listen through all of that, you'd of course be nothing but a slim bundle of licks to me ... shouldn't that be something you'd rather avoid?

What makes you think I'd be nothing but a 'slim bundle of licks'? have a listen and you'll see that's not what happens.

I as a listener do not have the limitless creative resources that I'm sure you as a player have.

That's not quite what I'm saying here. It is the moment itself that is limitless, not me. But then you're not going to listen to or read the work in question so this discussion is rather pointless isn't it? If you really want to know the answers to your questions about the project, you'll find them in the project itself.

[jon abbey]

'puritanical' is a very inflammatory word to use, Jon. I don't really like 'pure' either, but at least it's less churlish

everyone has their own connotations for words, but I actually think it's less inflammatory. 'pure' for me brings to mind the Nazis and Aryan attempts at racial purity. but either way, I think it's more accurate and could maybe actually lead to a back and forth discussion, pros and cons. 'pure' is impossible and absurd, as I've said multiple times before, it would require some sort of brain reset before every set, like a lobotomy (and of course no combo should ever play twice). 'puritanical' makes the 'purity' more of a goal, and thus something actually worth discussing IMO, an attempt at extremity versus an unreachable absolute.

but also if you read my linked post above (from the 'carnality in improv' thread), I think whether you like it or not, it's a crucial historical part of the aesthetic you're championing, specifically the UK free improv scene. I gave examples there involving Martin Davidson and AMM who have all sorts of personal zero-tolerance policies. here is another small example, from IHM alum Richard Pinnell's blog a few months back:

"I haven’t taken any form of recreational drug since I was about 19, and find the idea of listening to music under the influence a quite ridiculous one"

http://www.thewatchfulear.com/?p=5692#comments

I have had some of these own extremist/puritanical beliefs in my own aesthetic at times, although I don't think ever as strongly as the ones expressed above, but for instance, Yuko and I virtually never drink any kind of alcohol. I like to think I'm not judgmental of those who do, but I probably am a bit of those I think overdo it/rely on it too much. anyway, I think it's a fundamental aspect of the aesthetic you're championing, both historically and still currently.

[jon abbey]

taking one more crack at explaining myself, in case I haven't been clear enough...

the concept of 'pure improvisation' is impossible for me to think about, it's as unrelated IMO to the real world as unicorns or the Easter Bunny. 'puritanical improvisation'. on the other hand, has a history of close to half a century at this point, even if it hasn't been under that overarching term. I have issues with it as a sole way of working in 2011 (as well as having many aspects of it in my own aesthetic, historically and currently), but at least there's a discussion to be had there.

since Trevor Watts is well-known as someone who had issues with this aspect of the London scene (as he saw it anyway), I did a google search for 'trevor watts puritanical' and came up with this interesting tidbit:

"Watts: Another session that I really, really enjoyed was the one with Steve Swallow, where he did some trio things with us. That was another one that Bates wouldn’t let go. These things would have come out at the time, normally. It would have been good for us and, I’d like to think, good for the scene, generally. You can ask Steve about this. This is my understanding from a third party. Manfred Eicher asked Steve if there was anything he wanted released, and he said to Manfred that he wanted these tapes with John (Stevens) and I released. But, Bates wouldn’t let them go. We had a nice time playing together; the vibe was good. There was this one little bit, a little glitch, that Steve suggested editing out. John said no; it would be like sacrilege. It was a puritanical thing for him."

[mudd]

i agree with charon that puritanical has a lot of unnecessary connotations, but there is surely a better word than 'pure'.

m

[howsthatsound]

interesting to see this one come back out...

i think jon's modification of charon's idea is both more interesting, and accurate historically. i'm not so much worried about connotation. i mean, we're worried of what, the relation of these ideas to religion? sounds apt to me actually. (not that i'm particularly, passing judgement, or in a safe position to do so...)

[leroysghost]

I like it a lot too. Maybe it's more of a north east coast U.S. thing to be more aware of the different manifestations and interpretations of the whole Puritan ethos.

[Charon]

well, fair enough if you didn't mean it that way Jon. As I said, I don't like either word, I think simply 'improvisation' should suffice. And as for it being a goal to strive for, that's a given, that's what the whole project I linked to above was about, but I don't think that's negated by the use of the word 'pure' any more than it is by the use of the word 'puritanical'.