breaking late

[negative potential]

Isn't this the same with all musicians on all genres?
From Axel to Bob Dylan, the break through years (recordings) are what matter most. This is where the art is, and this is what people value of them. Should that necessarily be different with improvising musicians?

Peter Brötzmann. "Machine Gun" and the trio with Bennink and Van Hove is usually considered his "breakthrough" period, to the point where "Machine Gun" gets a Penguin Crown and "Core Collection" status and is the recording journalists refer to when making the cliche May 68 references.

But I think his most interesting work was around the turn of the century when he sort of cross fertilized with the Chicago scene and played with guys like Hamid Drake regularly.

Or Captain Beefheart. Much as a like Trout Mask Replica, I much prefer the post-punk era recordings like Doc at the Radar Station or Shiny Beast (Bat Chain Puller).

Come to think of it, I think artists that are defined solely or primarily through "breakthrough" works tend to also be artists who don't have anything interesting to say for a sustained period of time. Your own example of Bob Dylan is a prime one: I could give a shit about anything after Bringing it All Back Home/Highway 61/Blonde on Blonde, and in fact the lackluster and insipid stuff since then only serves to diminish even those accomplishments and make him seems like a flash in the pan phenomenon.

In fact, it's an insult to Axel Dörner to put him in Bob Dylan's company. Axel Dörner's work is still rewarding for anyone who cares to listen.

[Damon_Smith]

Dylan is best for me in opening credits of the Big Lebowski. The rest of his output just falls flat for me without the bowling footage.

quote]

Peter Brötzmann. "Machine Gun" and the trio with Bennink and Van Hove is usually considered his "breakthrough" period, to the point where "Machine Gun" gets a Penguin Crown and "Core Collection" status and is the recording journalists refer to when making the cliche May 68 references.

But I think his most interesting work was around the turn of the century when he sort of cross fertilized with the Chicago scene and played with guys like Hamid Drake regularly.

I am fan of most of Brötzmann's periods. I think the Miller/Moholo trio is the high point for me, but his recent groups Full Blast, Hairy Bones and the quartet with McPhee, Kessler and Zerang have done some great work.

[jon abbey]

so so so off topic, but Blood On The Tracks is topnotch Dylan from almost ten years after Blonde on Blonde.

[fuzzycotton]

Dylan is best for me in opening credits of the Big Lebowski. The rest of his output just falls flat for me without the bowling footage.

Ha, good one!


I am fan of most of Brötzmann's periods. I think the Miller/Moholo trio is the high point for me, but his recent groups Full Blast, Hairy Bones and the quartet with McPhee, Kessler and Zerang have done some great work.

The past few years I think Brotzmann has taken his solo playing to another level. I've witnessed 2 solo performances in recent years, I wasn't expecting too much to be honest, just the usual Brotzmann sound and I was pretty blown away He didn't do something entirely new, throughout the concerts though he went into territory I wasn't expecting from him. Always nice to be pleasantly surprised.

[bedouin]

Re: breaking late : Coltrane.


Just to clarify my original point a little (FWIW).
Of course there are artists that reinvent themselves. Or even manage to find different voices in different settings. But that's the exception in the rule. In most cases the evolution (when there is one) is relative and most often it has to do with improving skill or understanding technologies better.

So it could be argued that the "genius" is mostly at that defining moment regardless of when it happens or for how long. T.Monk (one of my longer standing favorite musicians) played more or less the same tune over his entire life. And when he was cornered by most of the music establishment, he still replied with the same tune. Still his music never lost it's vitality, freshness or relevance.

[Steve Reynolds]

to this day the greatest shows I have seen were the Brotzmann Tentet shows @ Tonic in 2000 & 2002

especially the latter 2 sets from what was the last tour with Drake and Zerang where they played compositions - 2 incredible 40-45 minute sets of composed and improvised genius

don't know if it was groundbreaking but it was fresh and exciting as live music can be

have never heard anything like it before or since


from a formerly jaded listener who likes jazz, rock, efi if you will and eai and much in between



strong language, baby

[negative potential]

Just to clarify my original point a little (FWIW).
Of course there are artists that reinvent themselves.

I'm not talking about artists that "reinvent themselves". That's just cheap novelty, fully in line with the commodity logic of "newer, faster, better". In fact, constant reinvention is precisely Bob Dylan's schtick. That's exactly the tip-off that he's all surface, no depth. Keeps the lyrics just vague enough so that the half-educated can project all kinds of meaning into them, and thus create the illusion of profundity.

No, a consummate artist like Peter Brötzmann never "reinvented himself". He just kept doing what he always did, and got better and better at it, refining his craft. It's what makes his later work so rewarding.

[Jesse]

No, a consummate artist like Peter Brötzmann never "reinvented himself". He just kept doing what he always did, and got better and better at it, refining his craft. It's what makes his later work so rewarding.

This sums up my continued interest in free/jazz-based improv. As I said in an earlier post, I don't burden the experience of listening to these artists with expectations of huge innovation. I am gratified by development and, as NP says, refinement.
Reinvention is a mixed, generally disastrous, gambit. Worked for Miles [more than once, remarkably]. But Ayler. Oliver Lake. Etc.

[Damon_Smith]

to this day the greatest shows I have seen were the Brotzmann Tentet shows @ Tonic in 2000 & 2002

especially the latter 2 sets from what was the last tour with Drake and Zerang where they played compositions - 2 incredible 40-45 minute sets of composed and improvised genius

don't know if it was groundbreaking but it was fresh and exciting as live music can be

I saw the band then in SF and I wasn't blown away. I love Hamid's playing in general and in smaller groups with Brötzmann but I think no compositions and less groove has been a huge improvment for the Tentet. The new box set is really, really good.

[Steve Reynolds]

havn't heard the new box - is it on okkadisk?


for me it might have been a great night the 2nd time - the first time it was the track Other Brothers that opened that blew the place away


the 2nd time the place was packed and the grooves were over the top - Hamid was on fire as were Mats and Peter (not down playing what the others were doing - especially McPhee)

I saw the Full Blown trio last year and they were a scream - incredibly intense and me my pals were in the second row - the loudest set of music I have ever heard with maybe Jason Lescaleet/Keith Rowe from this year in 2nd place

[Damon_Smith]

It is on Smalltown Superjazz. I really liked the 10 year album on Okka, too. I Saw Full Blast live and loved it. Günter Christmann's music also just gets better and better, too. The recent Varios and the duo with Lehn are outstanding.

[bedouin]

Just to clarify my original point a little (FWIW).
Of course there are artists that reinvent themselves.

I'm not talking about artists that "reinvent themselves". That's just cheap novelty, fully in line with the commodity logic of "newer, faster, better". In fact, constant reinvention is precisely Bob Dylan's schtick. That's exactly the tip-off that he's all surface, no depth. Keeps the lyrics just vague enough so that the half-educated can project all kinds of meaning into them, and thus create the illusion of profundity.

No, a consummate artist like Peter Brötzmann never "reinvented himself". He just kept doing what he always did, and got better and better at it, refining his craft. It's what makes his later work so rewarding.

I agree with the "refining craft" sentiment, but you sound too cynical with the notion of reinventing. Beyond Miles, several of the artists we discuss here seem to have, at some point, reinvented themselves succesfully (which I agree is rare). From Otomo Yoshihide, to Malfatti, to John Butcher, to Jimmy Guiffre most of them started with Rock/Jazz/etc. but moved on.

[J.F.]

If we're talking about 1st generation european free jazzers (Oxley, Brötzmann, Parker, Bennink etc), I think the way their music developped over the decades doesn't play such a big role in this context. They all had some impact on the european scene in the late 60s/early 70s... one could say their "break through"-period, but they get another kind of general attention since new audiences - in particular US-audiences - discovered that stuff on a broader level. Did that happen sometime in the late 90s?

I'm aware of for instance Brötzmann and Schlippenbach to start touring in the US already in the 70s, so somewhat establishing themselves on the US-scene might have been a long process, but I always got the impression at some point that development sped up remarkably (maybe when Brötzmann started being a regular guest in Chicago... around 2000? Or maybe the internet helped here as a new source for information?)
Not sure one could say with that they had their break through in the US, though - no idea how this gets perceived overthere.

Didn't Cecil Taylor break through (something) with the FMP-festival in 1988? (and not in 1986, when there already was a similar event in Berlin... well, 1988 brought us that massive CD-box-documentation)

Yes, at this point I wonder what musicians break through when they have their break through.

[faster]

maybe when Brötzmann started being a regular guest in Chicago... around 2000?

Well, Ken Vandermark won the MacArthur in 1999, so, yeah, probably 2000.

[Damon_Smith]

Didn't Cecil Taylor break through (something) with the FMP-festival in 1988? (and not in 1986, when there already was a similar event in Berlin... well, 1988 brought us that massive CD-box-documentation)

Yes, at this point I wonder what musicians break through when they have their break through.

The FMP box was a huge landmark, but Unit Structures and Conquisidor really started what he ended up doing, the Hat albums, Garden, One Too Many Salty Swift, Brewing Luminous and 8th were other important landmarks. After the FMP box with the Feel Trio and his other European bands were a whole other important period.

Corbett and Vandermark were already working travel grants and things like that to bring musicians into Chicago before Ken got the the big grant, I think musicians like Brötzmann being around him helped that happen.

[Jesse]

Malfatti

As good an example as Miles.

[hákarl]

I think, to a certain extent, 'breakthrough' generally means a popular record; not in as far as the musicians concerned stop being urgent, necessary, 'ground-breaking' but in terms of having a surge in popularity, an ostensible visibility beyond the immediately-present audience. I wasn't born when Machine Gun came out, but I've found him no less astonishing as an older player. I suppose part of the question revolves around the mode of appreciation - I tend to find 'free improv' (whatever that means in 2010) fantastically exciting live, but far less so on record. I've heard about 20-odd Derek Bailey records, and while I enjoy most of them, I can't say any particular one stands out as 'necessary' (with the exception of Standards, for prosaic reasons).

So yeah, I'd say the notion of someone's breakthrough relies upon the recorded format, and that recorded format has, to me, a more documentary function in a lot of improv. By comparison, it's near-impossible to think of, say, the Beatles (who I don't really like) without thinking of their work on Sgt Peppers because; within the pop/ rock context, the recorded format is the prima facie of the art.

[Damon_Smith]

I've heard about 20-odd Derek Bailey records, and while I enjoy most of them, I can't say any particular one stands out as 'necessary' (with the exception of Standards, for prosaic reasons).

There are a lot of stand out, great Bailey albums. "One Time" is one of the best EFI albums ever made, IMO. Of course I love the the duos with Joelle, Barre, Dave Holland and Simon Fell for obvious reasons.
The duo with Altena on the Pisa reissue on Psi is another incredible half hour of music, being a duo with bass we have to consider my own bias. As far as "One Time" that bias can be countered by it being one of the very few albums where Kent Carter is poorly recorded, normally his tone is full and woody but it is a board recording or something and the music is still incredible.