Carnality in improvisation

[simon reynell]

I've been thinking about the original topic of this thread: sex / carnality in relation to improvisation / contemporary music, and I think that – if we leave David Keenan to one side - there are some potentially interesting things worth discussing in relation to this.

I have always found the music I like best to be strongly sensual, and have said elsewhere that I have a fairly low tolerance of music that is conceptual but offers little or nothing in terms of visceral / emotional / sensual pleasure. And I've always felt that sex and music are the two things in life that give me the greatest pleasure, and that in some ways the kinds of pleasures I enjoy in both are similar or related (though obviously not completely the same).

Now it's important to acknowledge that even just within the 'avant garde', there are lots of different kinds of music working in lots of different ways, but it seems to me that there is a strong strand of sensuality or a kind of physical lyricism (?) in much of the music I listen to. In the contemporary classical world composers such as Nono and Feldman come to mind immediately, but it would also be true of other composers as diverse as Sciarrino, Scelsi, Pisaro and Takemitsu.

Within improvisation players who seem to have an almost erotic 'touch' would include John Tilbury, Radu Malfatti, Angharad Davies, Christian Weber and Taku Sugimoto. Perhaps significantly all the above play traditional instruments, and the element of sensual human touch that you can get from a skilled instrumentalist is, I'm sure, partly why I personally tend to prefer improvised music which combines acoustic and electronic instrumentation to purely electronic improv. But this isn't to say that electronics can't be sensual too; they certainly can, though perhaps not so easily so. The new Annette Krebs / Ernst Karel disc on Cathnor would, I think, be an example of a highly sensual work of electronics-only music, but then again perhaps this is easier to achieve with the kind of analogue set-up that both those players use?....I don't know.

So, pretty half-baked thoughts so far, but I wonder if anyone else has something more intelligent to say.

(And to be clear, I'm not saying that the quality of physical sensuality I'm referring to is something to which all music should aspire, or is a mark of superior quality; as ever it's a personal thing, but it's something that I seem to like in music a lot)

Any thoughts?

[Damon_Smith]

I think if the case had to be made, the sensitivty and attention to fine details would make a case for most EAI being at least somewhat erotic.
I think that indivdual taste in sexual preferences is as wide or wider than music, so you never know where it will cross pathes.

A crude but related story: I was living with a great American free jazz saxophonist in my early 20s and I was playing an Evan Paker solo album (probably "Process and Reality") and the saxophonist said, "Yeah, he is great but his playing is never going to make a woman wet". My girlfriend at the time said, "Are you kidding me? Listen to all that stuff he is doing with his tongue!!".

[Robert G]

Though I doubt anyone here cares, Scott Foust had this to say about The Breadwinner:

The eight pieces are like sonic sculptures of domestic life with its mixture of tedium/ hopelessness and unexpected flashes of beauty. A dangerous kitchen indeed. Someone in the back of my mind whispered ‘MZUI’ and there are similarities to that Dome related project, although the textures and sound of The Breadwinner is much more deliberately edited. There are a lot of great moments. I particularly liked Two States, which sounds oddly sexy. Great manipulations on that one, boys!

So, at least to Foust, EAI can be sexy/sensual.

[jon abbey]

interesting, I don't think I've ever really thought of anyone's musical touch as sensual specifically, even something I find as gorgeous as the Tilbury Jennings pieces. I'd say that sex is one component of any relationship (or the conscious lack thereof), and same with the duo improv I tend to prefer.

I think you could probably draw a connection between people's preferences in the size and balance of improv combos and their preferences in their relationship size and balance. I think Keenan has carnality confused with jerking off, to me a lot of what he champions (and, ahem, sells) represents the latter, even in combos. I know there are plenty of listeners who are looking for the bukkake equivalent, but some of us prefer more of a range in our interactions between ourselves and the music.

as a kind of side note, I have never met Keenan, but often when I read this kind of piece that seems to be based in an alternate reality from mine, it turns out that the writer has some kind of hearing loss/tinnitus, amazing how often I read that records actually filled with activity are 'mostly silent'.

[Jesse]

... amazing how often I read that records actually filled with activity are 'mostly silent'.

That's what I said here as a latecomer to hearing dach- I had read tons of ink about how near silence it is, and it is an eventful date. Never thought the disconnect might be attributable to tinnitus, I generally suspect inattention.

[faster]

Yeah, hearing loss is probably the more charitable assumption, if not the more likely one.

[J.F.]

Please listen to this music and mark with a cross below (plays something like dach-):

The musical example is mostly silent.

I completely agree____________________don't agree at all
O - O - O - O - O - O - O - O

The more your answer tends to "I completely agree", the more likely it is you either have a hearing problem or suffer from ADD.

[bryan]

... amazing how often I read that records actually filled with activity are 'mostly silent'.

That's what I said here as a latecomer to hearing dach- I had read tons of ink about how near silence it is, and it is an eventful date. Never thought the disconnect might be attributable to tinnitus, I generally suspect inattention.

Or listening environment. It can be hard to find a quiet place - this is why I use headphones often.

[Hal McGee]

It's a non-stop comedy marathon here at IHM.

Another possibility is that some people might not admire adult contemporary / easy listening avant garde.

[William Hutson]

Another possibility is that some people might not admire adult contemporary / easy listening avant garde.

hmm. are you referring to rowe and nakemura, or to charalambides and scorces?

[Hal McGee]

Another possibility is that some people might not admire adult contemporary / easy listening avant garde.

hmm. are you referring to rowe and nakemura, or to charalambides and scorces?

I'm certainly NOT referring to Rowe and Nakamura.
I was reacting to what I felt was a needlessly snarky attitude in some of the comments up-page which implied that dislike/impatience with works like dach are due to hearing loss and ADD. I admire dach, but I cannot say that I love it. There are lots of excellent EAI recordings of a more 'active' nature that I am able to love. It's a matter of taste. Not hearing loss or lack of attentiveness.

[mudd]

the first rowe/nakamura was quiet enough to turn off the transmitter at my radio station, but i can hear it fine all the way through.

i don't see any snark, though.

m

[jon abbey]

well, my original point was solely about hearing loss/tinnitus, and I don't think it's unreasonable to guess that Keenan might possibly have issues there, given the massive amounts of live earblasting music he's undoubtedly been present for. a lot of people have hearing loss to one degree or another, and some of them are music critics.

[Jesse]

Well, Hal's reaction elicits my own-but to clarify, not argue anything like matters of taste.
I wasn't being *snarky*-I was riffing on Jon's observation that people tend to miss things in the quieter end of the music spectrum. I do think many, many people who write about music are inattentive and lazy and ADD- often by their own admissions, writers say they only have time to give a spin or two to what they publish about. OK, that certainly informs my take on your listening acumen, as well as what you hear. I could care less if someone digs dach or not-my inattention comment is [macro view] seeing how stressed out, consumer-addled and endlessly barraged we are by noise [musch of it self-inflicted]; and [micro view], as I said, I have read critics disclose their listening habits in preparation for publishing a review, it's often, imo, less than the music merits.

[faster]

some of the comments up-page which implied that dislike/impatience with works like dach are due to hearing loss and ADD.

This is a mischaracterization. The hearing loss (and one jokey reference to ADD) comments were not linked to dislike/impatience, but to the misconception that dach and records like it are "mostly silent."

[William Hutson]

i wasn't attacking hal's comment. my point was to accuse much of the music keenan actually likes of sounding like honest-to-god easy listening.

[Dan Warburton]

my point was to accuse much of the music keenan actually likes of sounding like honest-to-god easy listening.

The music is continuous surface. Even the most interesting sounds - a brief drone, a weird ghost voice - come over like diminished versions of something with a much fuller life elsewhere.

That for me is a pretty good description of the (much overhyped and seriously overrated) New Weird stuff, but in fact it's DK's description of the Nakamura / Volden disc.

[grisha]

...I think Keenan has carnality confused with jerking off...

pretty much sums it up, imo.

[beefbeefmeat]

The music is continuous surface. Even the most interesting sounds - a brief drone, a weird ghost voice - come over like diminished versions of something with a much fuller life elsewhere.

That for me is a pretty good description of the (much overhyped and seriously overrated) New Weird stuff, but in fact it's DK's description of the Nakamura / Volden disc.

seconded, sounds like the begining of a description for any number of the releases avaialable through volcanic tongue.

[rainey]

Some people want to see a guitar get fucked and some want to get their minds fucked. Or both. Or neither.

It's easy to see how a guitar is "phallic", in the most simplistic sense of the term. It's harder to find the cunt in your mind.

Why are we so easily baited into discussions when someone does something sloppy like this piece? It reminds me of something Zizek (sorry, I like him) said about memes:

A "meme" spreads neither because of its actual beneficial effects upon its bearers (say, those who adopt it are more successful in life and thus gain an upper hand in the struggle for survival) nor because of its characteristics that make it subjectively attractive to its bearers (one would naturally tend to give privilege to the idea that promises happiness over the idea that promises nothing but misery and renunciation). Like a computer virus, the meme proliferates simply by programming its own retransmission.... What is so unsettling about this notion is that we, humans endowed with mind, will, and an experience of meaning, are nonetheless unwitting victims of a "thought contagion" that operates blindly, spreading itself like a computer virus.

(from Organs without Bodies)