what's the most critically acclaimed band...

[A Consumer]

As for the topic,

I can't stand Frank Zappa. There are so many rock fans to whom he is one of the de facto musical geniuses of the last century. I guess I get where they're coming from, but I hardly even like rock anymore, and Zappa was simply the most pretentious of them all.

Seconded. He stole a few of his best song titles from conversations he had with Beefheart (according to Don) and clearly adored living the rockstar life he lampooned in his music. The early Mothers had some great moments but his 70's output was watered down prog-jazz. Some of the 80's synclavier stuff had it's moments like reworking "Peaches in Regalia". I've had more than one friend who will incessantly sing his lyrics, much to my vocal disdain (real vibe killer with the ladies).

[leroysghost]

i agree with everything said about Zappa, but i still love those first Mothers albums (Freak Out, We're Only In It For The Money, Lumpy Gravy and Weasels Ripped My Flesh, though probably more in the "first exposure" Sonic Youth kind of way mentioned earlier).

[schiksalgemeinschaft]

I had a big & long Zappa phase, but stopped caring & listening for some of the reasons above indeed. he's still a great guitar player though - his virtuoso is not easy to deny, wether you like what he plays or not - , and I still like some of his tunes because of that: Zoot Allures, Watermelon in Easter Hay, Hot Rats, Willie The Pimp,... Where Only In It For The Money & Freak Out are solid, honest albums. I guess his big 1988 live bands remain, on a technical level, top as well.

[P. Wretch]

if you move past the sixties, I don't think anyone was creating 'canons' in the seventies and eighties who was nearly as influential as Pitchfork is now.

Pitchfork is an interesting test case actually, not only for how it shapes the contemporary 'indie' canon for the hipster market, but also how it presents material from the past in terms of its relevance to the former. If one reads the Pitchfork reviews of 60s/70s/80s reissues, they usually have a teleological emphasis, treating earlier generations as if they were merely part of the divine plan that culminated in Radiohead, Animal Collective, or whoever.

For instance, today they review a reissue of the first four albums by the Incredible String Band, who are incidentally one of my favourite 60s acts (I'd consider all of those albums classics). The review's tone is typically condescending, declaring that the ISB were not 'a properly great band', but that they are worth investigating because of namechecks by bona fide Pitchfork-endorsed artists: 'There remain plenty of reasons to think about the ISB in 2010, not the least of which are the raves garnered by the likes of Joanna Newsom and Grizzly Bear.'

With reference to the original topic, I find much of the 'rock canon' pretty tedious (Led Zeppelin onwards, or maybe electric Dylan), especially the beery macho element, except for where it tipped over into heavy metal and thus justified the use of thudding drums and amplification. That would include most garage rock and punk, although I share the enthusiasm for Gang of Four's 'Entertainment'.

[A Consumer]

I share the enthusiasm for Gang of Four's 'Entertainment'.

[rainbow_spit]

Nick Drake
just doesn't do anything for me.

Tom Waits
fuck him and gravel-gargling.

Sun Ra
i own several, can only get into a few. maybe i'm just not hearing the right stuff.

dude, you just fucked my mind. i want to study you.

[J.F.]

I can't stand Frank Zappa. There are so many rock fans to whom he is one of the de facto musical geniuses of the last century. I guess I get where they're coming from, but I hardly even like rock anymore, and Zappa was simply the most pretentious of them all.

In what way pretentious?

Okay - he developped that ugly habit of standing on stage with a baton, directing the band even through simple disco-based tunes (often when there was nothing to sing or play on guitar for him).
But apart from that he apparently had a very down-to-earth view on what he did.

Anyway I have the impression that in popular musical life he was more an outsider. Having in mind what he said (and sang) about music journalism I can't imagine he really was "critically acclaimed" in a broader sense - with his last Ensemble Modern-related projects (Yellow Shark & Civilization Phase lll) certainly being exceptions.

[joeperucki]

Love this thead but it's a tough one. Today, I cannot listen to a note of many of the bands listed but in my school days it was another story.
But then there is Wilco - sorry but I think you have to live in a Toll Brothers housing dev't to like them.
This is pathetic, for as much as I complain about music I should have a laundry list.

[Min Boyce]

The Sonic Youth discussion is an interesting one. My own SY-curve is pretty much as follows:

1. HATE
First expsoure via John Peel while in my formative/musical awakening phase. Through sheer bad luck the first two times I knowingly heard their stuff, it was Nic Fit from Dirty, both times. I wrote them off as talentless idiots, the kind of people that make deliberately bad, 'wowee I'm ker-razy!', lo-fi music. I was angry with them, and with their fans.

2. INTRIGUE
Finding out that Nic Fit was not necessarily representative of their work, and that they were capable of writing catchy, well produced rock.

3. LOVE
Increasing frustration with boring by-numbers alternative rock lead to gratitude that SY were doing something 'different' and relatively unconventional. Some excellent guitar sounds at a time when standard overdriven major chords were the norm. The romance of vaguely seedy Americana. High points: getting hold of Sister, Evol, Daydream Nation.

4. COOLING OFF
Realisation that for every great track of theirs, there existed an increasing number of clunkers, mainly the ones where Kim opens her mouth.

5. BOREDOM / FRUSTRATION
Increasing embarrassment at their attempts at 'experimental' music (the SYR series was pretty excruciating), sense that their more conventional stuff was being churned out according to an uninspired formula.

6. IRRELEVANCE
Switched off at Murray Street, rarely revisit their earlier stuff.

Other stuff, mainstream acclaimed:
The Clash leave me colder than cold
Bob Dylan means nothing to me
I've never had any interested in David Bowie

[quiet guy]

I can't stand Frank Zappa. There are so many rock fans to whom he is one of the de facto musical geniuses of the last century. I guess I get where they're coming from, but I hardly even like rock anymore, and Zappa was simply the most pretentious of them all.

In what way pretentious?

Okay - he developped that ugly habit of standing on stage with a baton, directing the band even through simple disco-based tunes (often when there was nothing to sing or play on guitar for him).
But apart from that he apparently had a very down-to-earth view on what he did.

Anyway I have the impression that in popular musical life he was more an outsider. Having in mind what he said (and sang) about music journalism I can't imagine he really was "critically acclaimed" in a broader sense - with his last Ensemble Modern-related projects (Yellow Shark & Civilization Phase lll) certainly being exceptions.

My impression of him was much different from him having a very down-to-earth view on what he did, but you might be right. We covered him in a class I had once, and my professor gave the impression that Zappa had ambitions to become accepted as a serious composer, instead of just being happy as an outsider rock guy. There's that and the fact that much of his music comes off as if he was trying to be "weird" in a self-conscious way. I know that he claimed that he didn't actually try to be weird, and I guess it's not a bad idea to believe him, but it just doesn't sound that way to me. Maybe he wasn't critically acclaimed in his time, but I was just going off of the fact that he has an immense number of fans, many of whom would consider themselves pretty knowledgeable about music, given that he wasn't totally mainstream.

[schiksalgemeinschaft]

We covered him in a class I had once, and my professor gave the impression that Zappa had ambitions to become accepted as a serious composer, instead of just being happy as an outsider rock guy.

He claimed so himself. The thing was that contemporary "serious composing" didn't pay the bills at that time, so he used the rock idiom to get where he wanted, resulting in stuff like The Yellow Shark at the end of his carreer.

Being selfconsciously weird seems to me more like marketing than anything else, which is hardly a sin if you try to make a living out of pop/rock music.

[ReverendLove]

First:
An composer who was critcally acclaimed but did nothing for me beside headache was Richard Wagner.

He did not any musical profound matters. It was like Mannerism versus Renaissance music in the 16th century what he does to Romaticism without a chance for further musical development. It was a ugly dark dead end street and so I do not have to wonder why some dubious German love him. - I do not have to apologize. I am German.

In a view of musical evolution of harmonics a man like Carlo Gesualdo di Venosa has reached Wagners stage two centuries before. - Was he critically acclaimed?

Second:
U2 - Just boring, hypocritical egomanics.

LYA
Rev. Love

[MRS]

In a view of musical evolution of harmonics a man like Carlo Gesualdo

Do you or does anyone else have any advice as far as the better recordings of Books V & VI?

[ReverendLove]

Yeah, I Like the recording of SONY
by the Collegium Vocale Köln / 2006.
I feel this is very near to his intention.

[Min Boyce]

It baffles me how anyone can take Current 93 seriously. I've tried listening to as much as I can via Spotify, and it's just laughable melodramatic teen-angst mysticism. Plus David Tibet has such a weak voice. What's that all about? Am I missing something?

Someone else I simply don't get: Willie Nelson. Most stuff that my folks listened to when I was a kid, I had a period of hating just because it wasn't cool to listen to your parents' records, but then I re-evaluated when I got older and it turned out that it's (often) good stuff, or I can at least appreciate it without needing to listen to it much. Johnny Cash, Mickey Newbury, Emmylou Harris, Waylon Jennings, Duane Eddy, Buddy Holly, The Hollies... but Willie Nelson - wow, I just don't get it. So much so that it almost makes me think people are taking the piss when they talk about him being so great.

[jon abbey]

It baffles me how anyone can take Current 93 seriously. I've tried listening to as much as I can via Spotify, and it's just laughable melodramatic teen-angst mysticism. Plus David Tibet has such a weak voice. What's that all about? Am I missing something?

no.

Someone else I simply don't get: Willie Nelson. Most stuff that my folks listened to when I was a kid, I had a period of hating just because it wasn't cool to listen to your parents' records, but then I re-evaluated when I got older and it turned out that it's (often) good stuff, or I can at least appreciate it without needing to listen to it much. Johnny Cash, Mickey Newbury, Emmylou Harris, Waylon Jennings, Duane Eddy, Buddy Holly, The Hollies... but Willie Nelson - wow, I just don't get it. So much so that it almost makes me think people are taking the piss when they talk about him being so great.

you should try to find his Who'll Buy My Memories double CD (by which I mean MP3s, as it's long OOP), which is pretty much as good as country music gets IMO, and which I'd take over anything by any of the other people you mention there. if that still doesn't do it for you, then you'll never like him.

[P. Wretch]

Do you or does anyone else have any advice as far as the better recordings of Books V & VI?

I recommend the recording of Fifth Book by La Venexiana (a brilliant Italian group who specialise in Monteverdi) on Glossa - don't have one of the Sixth.

It baffles me how anyone can take Current 93 seriously. I've tried listening to as much as I can via Spotify, and it's just laughable melodramatic teen-angst mysticism. Plus David Tibet has such a weak voice. What's that all about? Am I missing something?

From any rationalist perspective, Current 93 is laughable, but you have to take Tibet on his own terms, as a sort of wannabe Blakean visionary (nowhere near the same poetic league as Blake, mind), a living anachronism, absurd but disarmingly sincere. His thin, sickly voice and speech-song delivery are part of the whole aesthetic. Think of him as a sort of 'outsider' musician (i.e. naïve/deluded to the point of borderline insanity) if you like. It's an acquired taste, and not one worth expending any effort to acquire. It helps if you have a taste for the whimsical British pseudo-folk/folk-rock of the 60s/70s, from which he took cues (Incredible String Band, whom I mentioned above; Comus; Wicker Man soundtrack; Third Ear Band's soundtrack to Polanski's Macbeth, etc.).

I'm not a convinced fan, but intermittently find his stuff quite effective, particularly the album Sleep Has His House, with its harmonium drones. Latterly he's enlisted the services of a heavier rock backing band featuring the likes of Andrew WK, which evokes some of the ridiculous excesses of 70s prog. Not arguing that you should go back and reconsider, though: Tibet will inevitably sound immensely irritating to the vast majority of listeners, and his core fanbase is impressionable European goths, particularly those who fetishise the whole former 'World Serpent' axis (extensively chronicled by David Keenan), which included C93, Coil, Nurse With Wound, and the politically very dubious Death in June and Sol Invictus (Tony Wakeford, singer of the latter, makes David Tibet sound like Pavarotti).

[surfer]

Someone else I simply don't get: Willie Nelson. Most stuff that my folks listened to when I was a kid, I had a period of hating just because it wasn't cool to listen to your parents' records, but then I re-evaluated when I got older and it turned out that it's (often) good stuff, or I can at least appreciate it without needing to listen to it much. Johnny Cash, Mickey Newbury, Emmylou Harris, Waylon Jennings, Duane Eddy, Buddy Holly, The Hollies... but Willie Nelson - wow, I just don't get it. So much so that it almost makes me think people are taking the piss when they talk about him being so great.

you should try to find his Who'll Buy My Memories double CD (by which I mean MP3s, as it's long OOP), which is pretty much as good as country music gets IMO, and which I'd take over anything by any of the other people you mention there. if that still doesn't do it for you, then you'll never like him.

This really isnt the place to defend Willie, we had a country music thread at one point, but Willie is one of the best songwriters of his generation. The holy trinity of outlaw country for me is Merle, Waylon, and Willie. My muscial life would be a much poorer place without them. I know Jon is partial to that late 80s (iirc) set, and its very good, very intimate, and his acoustic guitar playing is good, but its imho not really top shelf material, kind of weird song choices. Only the great Pretend I Never Happened knocks my socks off. I wish there were more guitar breaks like the one on that song on that album.

The 70s Atlantic records (Shotgun Willie / Red Headed Stranger / Phases and Stages) -are of course the obvious way to start, and sample some of the later stuff like Teatro and Spirit. If you like electric Willie, the included-only-in-the-Atlantic-Box-but-you-can-dl-online-somewhere live set called Live At The Texas Opera House is awesome fun. blistering.

I'm writing a song all about you
a true song as real as my tears
But you've no need to fear it
cause no one will hear it
cause sad songs and waltzes aren't selling this year

That mix of melancholy and self-deprecating wit and humor is pure Willie, no one else can write a lyric like that in country music.

[Jesse]

Wow, almost 100 % accord with Surfer's post about Willie- amazing force. I'd suggest the same trilogy for starters. His early [mid-60's] songwriting for Ray Price et al is superb as well.

Too long a story for now, but my connection to Nelson goes back to the 60's. He was on my family radar then, as both my mom and dad recorded in Nashville, and hung with Willie more than once. I treasure an anecdote about Willie playing during a historical blizzard in a podunk town in Iowa, giving a 2 hour show to 5-6 people [circa late 60's]. My moms was there and recounted that gig with joy. When my mom died, aged 56, we were spinning Willie daily. Shotgun Willie was her favorite funk music.

Clearly his music being the soundtrack for my youth should be considered in my estimation of his considerable talents.

In a word [to respond to your question "what I am missing?"], phrasing. Listen to Nelson with particular attention to his phrasing. Jazz.

[Min Boyce]

you should try to find his Who'll Buy My Memories double CD (by which I mean MP3s, as it's long OOP), which is pretty much as good as country music gets IMO, and which I'd take over anything by any of the other people you mention there. if that still doesn't do it for you, then you'll never like him.

The two disc set is a compilation of demos, outtakes, and stripped-down recordings featuring only Nelson and his guitar.

Ha ha - given that two of the things I can't take about Willie are his voice and his inept guitar playing, I don't fancy my chances too much with that. I guess I'll consign him to the 'things other people like but I don't' part of my brain, along with dried fruit and Shakespeare. I doubt he'll lose any sleep over my opinions.