Michael Jackson RIP

[przesyt]

Alas Bono should have died, not Jacko.
Rah.

[kp*]

My first memories are of the Jackson 5 singles played continuously on WABC Musicradio 77 with the memorable Ron Lundy! -- "Hello Luv!" Anyone else who is old and grew up in New York City before the emergence of FM radio (and our cars were always 10-20 years old, so lots of trips with AM), will know what the F i am talking about. Those are some really great songs (and some great all tube hand wired radios we had in our homes too!).

I vaguely remember Alpha-Bits cereal and the Jackson 5 being on the box cause of their hit song ABC.

I also have vague memories of the TV commercials for "The Wiz" on Broadway, which i think MJ was in at some point, and the Jackson 5 changing their name to the Jacksons.

I also remember the madness over Off The Wall, which is what started the avalanche with a handful of uber memorable top ten hits that were, of course, continued with Thriller. After that it just got weird, starting with the Pepsi commercial fiasco, and the rumors of him sleeping in a glass oxygen chamber, etc.

But obviously the dance was also a huge part of it. This clip of MJ at Motown shows just how dynamic his movement was (watch throo to the end).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-blEgMyJwU

R.I.P

-kevin--

[jcg]

Total moonwalk overdose here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRfI82feIdU

[michael]

Total moonwalk overdose here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRfI82feIdU

man, i lost it when he started moonwalking in circles

[washline]

It amazes me that, apparently in the minds of many (any here?), Jackson's contributions to pop music and popular culture outweigh his... ahem... peculiar love of children.

Michael Jackson has died? I'm not quite feelin' the tragedy of it.

Michael Jackson was both more and less than his love of children. It can't be ignored and it can't be the only thing that one thinks about him. Human beings are complicated. There isn't one solitary narrative to describe one.

Fritz Lang's "M" is good film to keep in mind when thinking about a pedophile like Michael J.

[jon abbey]

well, leaving aside his freakish personal life and even leaving aside his actual music (which I can see why people like some of, although I have never especially cared, at least partly because of timing as to when I encountered it*), I think that his influence on R&B and soul was quite toxic.

before him, you had genuine songwriters/performers like Al Green, Marvin Gaye and Curtis Mayfield, but Jackson watered down this style in order to try to bring it to more of a mass audience. he was obviously unbelievably successful in that, but I don't think that creatively, R&B/soul have ever recovered, a bit like electric Miles killing jazz (which might have been done anyway) because no one else who tried to follow in his footsteps could make great music in the electric jazz vein.

I'm a bit out of my league on that analysis, and I've waited a few days to broach negative thoughts publicly, but curious for any informed responses.

*if it matters, I grew up with Thriller being ubiquitous and it was obvious that he was an offputting alien freak already, who I felt no connection to. I didn't like the music at all, and this probably tainted my later discoveries of the Off the Wall singles and the Jackson 5 material, thus I've never owned a record by him amidst the thousands upon thousands I've bought in my life. I did DL Off the Wall the other day, and am hoping to give it a non-judgmental listen at some point, as I don't think I've ever heard the whole thing straight through.

[washline]

Your reply is reasonable and comprehensible Jon. I don't disagree, and I'm probably not informed enough to reply, but for me, soul music was pretty well dead before Thriller came along, though I certainly didn't know it at the time. I don't think of MJ's work in the same way as the others you mention and like you I've never owned an MJ record though recently, before his death, I considered getting a copy of Thriller, but decided not to because like a lot of pop music (the Beatles for example), I've already heard too much of it. But as when members of the Beatles died, I tried to appreciate their singular contribution outside my own tastes and orientation. I'm not sure that I agree that MJs influence was "toxic" but rather like the blockbuster in cinema, he came along when the industry tried to divert all capitalized attention on a primary commodity for consistent and appreciable yields. Madonna is another dimension of that consolidation of the industry and the overemphasis on both artists is much of why the industry is in dire straits today (so to speak). From my perspective, MJ was an effect of an industry that by the early 80s and through the conjoined emphases of greed and morality, had sealed its own death in the figure of a unitary savior. I think MJ has to be considered both inside and outside that dynamic. Were it not for the industry, he would have been a continuation of where R&B was clearly headed by the late 70s and the twilight of disco, a decadent state. And within that decadent technology of preformed hooks, MJ made a singular contribution inside the powerful umbrella of Quincy Jones' often irritating aesthetic.

I've always liked The Jackson 5 better than MJ alone, but then their heyday was during the period of soul that sticks the longest with me and has left a more meaningful imprint, still not yet enough to buy a recording, but that may change soon.

[tarfumes]

Chronologically, Thriller arrived prior to the industry's reorientation; that is, it was the success of Thriller that essentially demanded such a reorientation. Jackson was the cause of it rather than the effect. The record business was further into the toilet it had flushed itself into in 1982 than it had been in 1979.

I would also argue that it was Jackson's umbrella that Quincy Jones operated under, not the other way around. For instance, Jackson's home demos for "Billie Jean" and "Don't Stop Till You Get Enough" contain complete arrangements (by Jackson) that would later appear on the master takes; Jones added nothing to the former, his usual clumsy and distracting horn fills to the latter. Musicians on those records have said that Michael was fully involved with every aspect (to the point of spending several hours picking out just the right bass guitar to be used on a particular track). Jones mostly oversaw the proceedings ("he runs the show without ever running the show," as keyboardist Greg Phillinganes put it).

I highly recommend folks check out Dave Marsh's Trapped: Michael Jackson and the Crossover Dream, which is as comprehensive and probing as any account of those years I've come across.

[washline]

Chronologically, Thriller arrived prior to the industry's reorientation; that is, it was the success of Thriller that essentially demanded such a reorientation. Jackson was the cause of it rather than the effect. The record business was further into the toilet it had flushed itself into in 1982 than it had been in 1979.

Interesting reply, however, larger cultural forces had to be in play here too. You don't have sales of some 28 million records without there being some kind of reorientation of the audience as well. If Thriller reoriented the industry as you say, then something was pulling on that record on the other end, and that's the part that needs to be analyzed exclusive of the recording.

[tarfumes]

Historically/economically, Thriller straddled the early 80s recession and the mid-80s economic "recovery" (such as it was). Off The Wall had been such a massive seller that CBS saw no reason not to plow money into promoting Thriller. They knew it would be a huge seller; the level of hugeness wasn't expected, nor was it something that could easily (or accurately) be attributed to anything CBS did that they didn't do for their other artists. There was one major exception: Walter Yetnikoff supposedly gave MTV an ultimatum that if Jackson's videos weren't aired in heavy rotation, CBS would pull their entire roster off MTV. MTV's racism at that time is something that's largely been left out of the recent news coverage on Jackson (although LA Reid called him "the Jackie Robinson of MTV" on Dateline NBC). I think it was the exposure of Jackson via MTV to largely suburban and rural audiences (cable was far less available in economically depressed inner-city areas in those days) that contributed to the audience's reorientation.

Also, Jackson was uniquely positioned (socially and artistically) to make a record that everybody could enjoy, something he learned from Berry Gordy. Jackson's stated goal was to make the best-selling record of all time, which is so absurd in terms of how phenomenally that goal was realized given how many variables could have easily derailed it.

[washline]

How could I forget about MTV. I guess I despise it so much I forgot about it. Well, there's where a lot of the consolidation happened, and yes, that was a very white bread operation when it first started. I remember it well. CBS strong-arming it was another important cultural force and then you have an artist for which many people had positive associations because of his work as a child. Add in a much more prominent televisual mode of production and you have a blockbuster musical hit. But I also think this was a period where popular music had very much disintegrated in quality, where a lot of the more interesting artists in the 70s were running out of gas, and Jackson came in and filled a vacuum.

I hated the eighties. I lived through them and couldn't wait to get out of them. Anyway, thanks for the explanations. This is all very interesting and suggestive.

[schiksalgemeinschaft]

for us that were only toddlers in the early eighties this is a very interesting read indeed, keep it coming.

[yonhosago]

for us that were only toddlers in the early eighties this is a very interesting read indeed, keep it coming.

Seconded.

[Noj]

My niece is 15 and cares nothing about Michael Jackson's music or dancing or celebrity status. Her hilarious response to the video "The Way You Make Me Feel" was simply "he's the scariest thing ever."

As a person whose formative years were in the 80s (I'm 33), I have a certain affinity for all the different musical excesses of that time, from pop to hair metal. My favorite overall music from that time is electronic and reggae.

[horaflora]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... s-ago.html


Some pretty interesting stuff here...

[tarfumes]

How could I forget about MTV. I guess I despise it so much I forgot about it. Well, there's where a lot of the consolidation happened, and yes, that was a very white bread operation when it first started. I remember it well. CBS strong-arming it was another important cultural force and then you have an artist for which many people had positive associations because of his work as a child. Add in a much more prominent televisual mode of production and you have a blockbuster musical hit. But I also think this was a period where popular music had very much disintegrated in quality, where a lot of the more interesting artists in the 70s were running out of gas, and Jackson came in and filled a vacuum.

I hated the eighties. I lived through them and couldn't wait to get out of them. Anyway, thanks for the explanations. This is all very interesting and suggestive.

I too remember pre-1983 MTV well (glimpsed over a period of a few days at my grandmother's in 1982; my folks didn't get it until 1986); there were no Black artists at all on that channel. David Bowie once asked VJ Mark Goodman -- during a live interview -- why they didn't play Black artists. Disturbingly, Goodman didn't hesitate at all to answer. I saw the clip once a few years ago, and his response was something along the lines of, "We know our [white] audience doesn't want to see Black artists." Bowie paused, gave him a look of incredulity and said, "Mmm....interesting." Rock & Roll Confidential did a brief story about it at the time (found here).

Between his Jackson 5 records and singles like "Ben," Michael actually was able to maintain a significant profile with the records the Jacksons (Berry Gordy kept the name "Jackson 5" upon their separation from Motown) made in the late 70s/early 80s (Destiny and Triumph). They weren't hits on the scale of Off The Wall, but they kept him in front of audiences -- their 1979 and 1981 tours played to packed arenas. So it wasn't just 11-year-old Michael people were remembering when they bought Thriller.

Me, I loved the 80s. Jackson was on the radio (all radio; previously all-white album-rock stations -- at least, the ones in Chicago -- played "Beat It" frequently, and "Billie Jean" only slightly less so), along with Prince, Springsteen, Run-DMC, Madonna, Grandmaster Flash; and Husker Du, the Minutemen, the Replacements, and Green were in the record stores. I didn't really grasp how exciting it all was until it was long over.

Just out of curiosity, washline, who are some of the 70s artists you had in mind as "running out of gas"?

[gohleekwang]

my memory with MJ is he was the guy on tv, with every brick he step on, the light glow.

and i prefer the raw version of Billy Jean by Eugene Chadbourne.

RIP.

[washline]

Mostly the stuff I listened to before going to college--the Stones, the Who, Grateful Dead, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, the Kinks, Fleetwood Mac, Steely Dan, The Doobie Brothers (pre-Michael McDonald) etc. And what was coming up in their place was Foreigner, Journey, Loverboy, and the video program that preceded MTV was doing Devo, Flock of Seagulls, the Cramps, basically white new wave with modest bit of punk thrown in. My senior year in high school (79-80) I was listening to Ian Drury and the Blockheads, the Clash, the Jam, Ian Hunter, Rockpile, and Graham Parker--some Springsteen also, but I was already starting to lose interest in him just as he was catching fire. I had stopped listening to soul/R&B pretty much with the emergence of Donna Summer and The Village People, i.e. the emergence of disco. My last R&B record then was The Brothers Johnson in 77. In 78, I bought More Songs about Buildings and Food by the Talking Heads and it blew my mind, as did Elvis Costello's Armed Forces. So by 1980 or so I had pretty much turned away from what had become pop and more into what later came to be known as alternative with a fairly strong component of classical rock and punk/new wave thrown into the mix. These divisions were artificial though, but yeah, white midwestern high school boys were turning away from black music then, except for reggae (thanks in part to Sandinista), and much of it was rebellion against the disco movement, which emerged from soul/R&B from places like Philadelphia Records in 74, the stuff that I used to listen to all the time on the radio in middle school. When I got to the university dormitory after I transferred from my first school in 81, I couldn't believe the crap that was coming out of other people's rooms. I had about two years in the dorms--kegs, toga parties, and the worst music imaginable as the soundtrack to my university coursework before I moved out. Drinking swill and listening to Rush and UFO on a Friday night. I thought my tastes were pretty good in those days, way more substantial than my classmates, but nothing compared to where the young folk on this board are now. But then, we didn't have the internet or computers, or digital files, etc. I bought regular vinyl records when I could afford them and I listened to the radio when I could, and when it was tolerable and interesting. By around 86-87, I got enormously into jazz, and sold most of my rock library. I had first caught the jazz bug at a Return to Forever concert in NYC in 83, when I was a member of a Model United Nations contingent. That show blew my mind, but it would probably bore me to tears today, and probably worse with folks like you. From there, it was on to John McLaughlin and the Mahavishnu and a bit of fusion before Miles Davis came along with Man with the Horn and then Pat Metheny. By 86-87, I started to have a time warp and went back to early jazz thanks to the Time Life box sets at our downtown Carnegie Library and the Smithsonian Collection of Classic Jazz at my university library (yes, I was still meandering through school after a few periods of dropping out). Then I found free jazz in around 87-88 and that completely screwed up my brain. I remember going to a used record store in Florida in 87 and trading 40 rock LPs for 4 brand new Sun Ra records. That was some months after seeing Sun Ra live for the first time. I thought I was getting a very good deal! I think my turn to jazz music then, particularly the older stuff, was due to my frustration with where pop and rock music were during that decade, and it wasn't until grunge came long that I felt a bit better about where the listening habits of the public were going, but since I was already bitten by the jazz bug, I didn't really care about grunge either.

So that's pretty much my listening history for about 8-10 years or so when I was buying maybe 20-30 records a year, doing a little bit of home taping, if I could find anything worth taping, and listening to FM radio and sometimes fairly decent university radio. Those were the analogue days. I'm still fond of some of that period because of how I felt when I discovered new things, but I was also disappointed much of the time because when new artists who had caught my attention became famous, their music suffered and became less interesting. I also had no idea that electroacoustic music existed or experimental composition, not that my brain was wired to appreciate that stuff back then. But sometime around 88 or so I became interested in the work of Harry Partch through a friend, and I started doing a radio show on Saturday mornings at my university on more eclectic experimental music. It was then that I learned about minimalism and became a little bit familiar with recent composition though I was no serious listener or anything and more importantly had very little access to much of anything where I lived. That and I was a dirt poor college student subsisting on instant mashed potatoes. Perhaps a significant reason for why I hate the eighties was because for me it was a period of intense poverty combined with education. Hard work and no financial yield.

[washline]

Oh I forgot that I did get into Prince a bit around 83 and I also bought Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five's The Message when it came out. That was a bit later than 80 though when for me pop music was pretty much falling apart.

[Moon]

http://michaelsnotdead.com/

Open your eyes sheeple!


Also, Billy Mays is dead too.