the voice in improvised music

[simon reynell]

I'm sure there've been strands about improvising vocalists before, but I'm interested in a particular aspect that was brought out by Brian Olewnick in his review of ‘Soba to Bara’ by Ami Yoshida and Toshimaru Nakamura:

“Free, extreme vocalizing isn't the easiest thing on my ears; I often have much trouble getting past--not that I should, necessarily--the overt psychological aspects of it, or at least being able to balance those against their purely sonic value. With Ami's work, especially when, as here, she dwells mostly in what may be thought of as "strangulated" mode, it's tough not to picture her in some difficult-to-watch state of...seizure? But getting to the point of being able to mentally flip-flop those conditions, as I was eventually able to do here, allows one to experience an unusually powerful and, yes, emotional event.”

As ever with Brian, thoughtful and well-put. It got me thinking about responses to vocal improvisers, as they seem to be even more varied and subjective than usual, and are sometimes extreme.

I haven’t heard ‘Soba to Bara’ yet, though Brian’s review convinced me that I must give it a try. However, Ami Yoshida is one of many vocalists whose work I haven’t really liked up to now (though for that reason I haven’t heard very much of her stuff). In fact, when it comes down to it, there’s only one improvising vocalist who I really like: Phil Minton, and I can’t really explain why he feels different for me. My mother doesn’t agree. When she saw Phil perform, she said that she found it “embarrassing”. I scoffed at her scornfully, but ‘emabarrassing’ is a word that I might well apply to most other improvising vocalists. As Brian suggests, the voice in improvisation often has an in-your-face emotionalism that can be discomfiting in a way that a sinewave or even a wailing saxophone isn't quite.

But like I say, it all seems to be ultra-subjective. There are several people I know with broadly similar tastes in improvisation who can’t abide Phil Minton’s vocalising. [Yet there must be plenty of people out there who do like it, because the two ‘another timbre’ discs on which he features have sold better than most.]

There are other forms of music where I don’t like vocals; I can’t stand jazz singing, and traditional classical singing that involves vibrato and excessive emotionalism has put me off numerous contemporary works that I might otherwise have enjoyed. And yet I’m not against all singing, and absolutely adore early polyphonic vocal music (Josquin, Obrecht, Dufay etc) as well as Bach’s cantatas, though of course vibrato is not conventionally used there. But perhaps that’s wandering off topic - or then again perhaps not. Is there something connecting the vibrato of an opera diva and the “strangulated” emotionalism of Phil Minton, Ami Yoshida, or whoever?

So all in all I’m puzzled, and wonder what exactly it is that the likes of Brian and I find difficult about the use of the voice in improvisation. Any thoughts?

[Dohol]

I have problems with most vocal improvisation. I think it's quite a courageous thing to do ( it is just YOU after all ), but I haven't heard a lot of enticing stuff coming from that direction..

Other than Yoshida, I think Liz Tonne does interesting work.

I wish Christine Jeffrey had recorded more..All I've ever heard from her was what she did with the MIC and that duo she did with Derek Bailey.

[faster]

I totally agree with your mother about Minton.

[simon reynell]

But why, Joe? Why do many of us find so many vocal improvisers discomfiting / embarrassing?

I'm totally not interested in setting up another thread about who thinks who is a better vocalist than who. For me Brian's review touched on a far more interesting general point, but one I'm having problems thinking through more deeply. I think it is something to do with raw emotionality. Whilst music is always emotional to a degree, a lot of people round here (myself included) are more comfortable with emotions in music (and art in general?) being understated / subtle / abstracted. And for some reason it's really hard to hear a sound that we recognise as being produced by a human voice in the same way as a sound we recognise as coming from an instrument, let alone a computer. We somehow need the human physicality to be mediated, masked or transformed. But I still can't put my finger on why and what is going on here.

[jon abbey]

dunno, it seems pretty obvious to me. voices are something very un-abstract, something every person comes into contact with numerous times every day, so their presence in abstract music is almost always pretty jarring and at odds with the general purpose of/approach to the music. are you looking for something more than that?

it's a bit along the lines of why so many people have trouble with saxophones, but even that is much easier to mask/conceal/blend in than vocals. Ami is the only free vocalist I've ever really enjoyed, even in my free improv days I didn't dig Minton or Jaap Blonk, etc. (although Minton was pretty good at the poire_z concert that became the For 4 Ears CD, that's the most I've ever liked him was at that set live).

[Gaendaal]

dunno, it seems pretty obvious to me. voices are something very un-abstract, something every person comes into contact with numerous times every day, so their presence in abstract music is almost always pretty jarring and at odds with the general purpose of/approach to the music.

I agree with this. It's jarring because everything we're wired to think of about the human voice is being taken away and perverted.

I don't necessarily think that something being jarring is bad, though.

[Dohol]

Well, perhaps the embarrassment stems from the feeling that the gibbering, babbling, the throat noises, the speaking in alien languages, etc, are too..I don't know..naked? The signs of extreme mental distress..schizophrenia? Maybe we can't get past the conditioning that tells us this is something that JUST ISN'T DONE..

Hence the embaresment..

[jon abbey]

dunno, it seems pretty obvious to me. voices are something very un-abstract, something every person comes into contact with numerous times every day, so their presence in abstract music is almost always pretty jarring and at odds with the general purpose of/approach to the music.

I agree with this. It's jarring because everything we're wired to think of about the human voice is being taken away and perverted.

I don't necessarily think that something being jarring is bad, though.

that's not what I'm saying, though. I'm saying that their inclusion is jarring because it leaves less space for the listener, they almost always call direct attention to themselves every second that they're present in a way that no other instrument does (even the sax). their inclusion usually cuts down the potential range of mindsets/reactions by the listener by being so concrete and defined of a source, by calling attention to itself almost every second it's present, "HERE IS A VOICE".

[simon reynell]

dunno, it seems pretty obvious to me. voices are something very un-abstract, something every person comes into contact with numerous times every day, so their presence in abstract music is almost always pretty jarring and at odds with the general purpose of/approach to the music. are you looking for something more than that?

I don't think that is it, Jon. Sure we hear 'voices' every day, but we don't hear the kind of sounds that Phil and Ami make every day. We hear guitars and drums pretty much every day as well whether we like it or not, but that doesn't mean they can't be used 'abstractly' in improvised music. And some of the sounds vocalists like Phil and Ami produce are no less 'abstract' than sounds produced by instruments or electronic set-ups. I've just edited a group recording involving Phil where over 80% of the time even experienced improv-listeners would be very hard-pushed to identify 'voice' as one of the instruments. But because at other moments his voice emerges in a recognisably human form, it transforms the listening experience - negatively or positively, depending on your point of view.



I think Dohol's getting closer to the point that Brian O's review opened up for me.

[RFKorp]

dunno, it seems pretty obvious to me. voices are something very un-abstract, something every person comes into contact with numerous times every day, so their presence in abstract music is almost always pretty jarring and at odds with the general purpose of/approach to the music. are you looking for something more than that?

I don't think that is it, Jon. Sure we hear 'voices' every day, but we don't hear the kind of sounds that Phil and Ami make every day.

I'd say we actually do hear a few of Ami's sounds and most of Phil's sounds in normal human interaction. They are just used differently. individual small not-even-syllables of words get stretched into abstract sounds but that does not mean they do not subconsciously retain a connection to the way they are used in the more "standard" manner.

[Nim Chimpsky]

I agree with the point Gaendaal made. The human brain is hard-wired to respond to human voices and the human ear is designed to capture the sound of the human voice, regardless of what sounds it's making, in a way that it isn't with musical instruments. Any judgements about the 'emotional' content in a voice flow from this.

Aside from this fact, I can't see why aesthetic judgements made about Phil Minton or Ami Yoshida is any more or less subjective than those made about any other musician.

[simon reynell]

I can't see why aesthetic judgements made about Phil Minton or Ami Yoshida is any more or less subjective than those made about any other musician.

I agree with that, but there does seem to be an intensity in some people's responses to vocal improvisers - on the negative side especially - that suggests that more is going on than just an aesthetic judgment being made.

I agree with the point Gaendaal made. The human brain is hard-wired to respond to human voices and the human ear is designed to capture the sound of the human voice, regardless of what sounds it's making, in a way that it isn't with musical instruments. Any judgements about the 'emotional' content in a voice flow from this.

I also think that is well put and probably valid.

[J.F.]

What I find mostly embarassing is vocalists imitating instrumental textures around them. I really prefer somebody like Minton, doing "human" vocals.

One thing that distinguishes Minton from others in my ears: I sense humor in his performances, and I have the impression much of what he does is relativated in an ironical way.

One female singer who once impressed me with her unpretentious but expressive singing in an improvised context was Marianne Schuppe.

[mudd]

of the vocal improvisers i've seen, only ami yoshida and liz tonne performed without humor or levity.

jaap blonk, phil minton, makigami koichi, david moss, paul dutton, maggie nichols...i've enjoyed all of them very much, but in most cases it was with laughs and smiles rather than the arresting intensity i saw from ami or liz when they were on. even on record.

i know minton is capable of that intensity, and i enjoy those moments from him on record. haven't seen that live though.

anyway for me that's why i like ami and liz as much as i do. i'm also a big fan of diamanda galas and junko, for somewhat related reasons.

m

[jkudler]

jon more or less beat me to it, though it'd put a slight tweak on it. i locate the "problems" with vocal improvising less in any inherent emotional qualities (though they are certainly there) than in the simple fact the voice is primarily used for a more literal type of signification that doesn't apply to instruments. not just in its verbal capacity, but even in non-verbal sounds like cries, whimpers, sighs, etc. these all have a socially agreed-upon meaning that is very hard to ignore or forget. creating "abstract" music becomes much harder - meaning and role is fixed in a way that it isn't with say, a sine wave, or even a guitar note. i also find that one tends to hear voice as a lead with background, a la a rock band, even when that isn't intended. i think it's a natural part of how we hear the human voice but also the way music has conditioned us over a lifetime.

the other side of this is a kind of intentional (or at least intentionally not avoided) "theatricality" that i usually find pretty cheesy or annoying or just distracting - the faces, grimaces, expressions, etc - particularly when there are other musicians on stage. just to stick to the minton example (someone whom i have no strong opinions about):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EPXzz3B-94

who are your eyes going to be on?

... and i will take the chance to share this. really like liz tonne's piece quite a lot:
http://www.ubu.com/sound/mo_cd1.html

-jesse

[jon abbey]

yeah, to me the answer to the original question is pretty obvious, which is maybe why my answer wasn't as clear as it could have been, sorry about that.

the more interesting question that the thread raises (for me anyway) is why Ami transcends this bias for me as a listener and no one else really ever has (my exposure to Liz Tonne has been pretty minimal, so I don't know how she fits in for me). Mark got at this a bit with the lack of humor (I'm OK with humor in improvised music, but not in improvised vocalese, I guess), and so does Jesse here:

the other side of this is a kind of intentional (or at least intentionally not avoided) "theatricality" that i usually find pretty cheesy or annoying or just distracting - the faces, grimaces, expressions, etc - particularly when there are other musicians on stage.

Ami doesn't do any of this, at least not intentionally. there is no removed persona in her music, it's all her and at her best, she's channeling unbelievably deep and raw emotions, a window into the depths of her soul, but in a kind of abstract way. Soba to Bara is a pretty difficult listen for me, quite draining and taxing, but also pretty special IMO.

dunno, my thoughts on this aren't as clear as I'd like, I'm going to talk to Yuko more about it today, because she understands Ami extremely well (they're from the same neighborhood in Tokyo, among other things).

[Kyrre Laastad]

But there is something about the choice of sounds being made by most vocal improvisors as well. They tend to be really abrasive. There's no singers that I'm aware of that are like Opposite-era Sugimoto or Tilbury. I would love to hear someone hum in a thoughtful way in an improvised music setting as opposed to the usual throat-stretching umms and ahhs and phriotroixtczhes.

[jkudler]

suzanne langille?

[Kyrre Laastad]

suzanne langille?

I'm not aware of her.

I'll check her out.

[Jesse]

phriotroixtczhes.