Columbia Computer Music Center

[einklavier]

That's right, the legendary CMC (formerly Columbia-Princeton Electronic Music Center). I'm right around the age to start browsing colleges (I actually visited the Columbia campus unofficially, just to look around, didn't have time to visit the CMC), and basically as soon as I heard the CMC existed, I knew I wanted to go to Columbia. I don't know why, I know nothing of acoustics and know only enough about computers/electronics to upload CDs and download music, but I had heard so much about it (as the former Columbia-Princeton EMC) from reading about people like Babbitt.

So does anyone have experience with the CMC? Thoughts about how naive I am to want to go into a field I know nothing about? Music they've heard that has come out of the center?

[c_sns]

Interesting, I didn't even know the CCMC was still around. After a quick glance it looks like a pretty basic program. It would probably help to do some research into the field before you apply as a lot of the programming can be pretty tedious and frustrating (especially if you're bad at math). Sounds like you've had a long infatuation with the institution so maybe it's worth pursuing.

Have you ever looked into CREATE in Santa Barbra, CA? Curtis Roads and Steven Travis Pope both teach there and both have contributed a lot to the development of computer music in the last 20 years. As far as I know CCMC was only cutting edge in the 60's. Perhaps I'm wrong?

[kp*]

It seems wrong headed to choose a college program based on it's ancient history. It's like when they trot out these sports stats that represent accomplishments and trends that reach back so far that they cannot have any real significance to players and coaches that make up the current team, such as (I'm making this up) The Yankees are 0-6 on Tuesdays in the postseason against Seattle. At that level, you are talking about chance. Milton Babbitt's tenure at Columbia will have 0 significance your experience there other than you get to oh and ah at the RCA synthesizer that still makes its home at 125th street.

That said... i do have significant experience working at Columbia and know many of the alumni and teachers working up there. If you are interesting in the software aspects of computer music there are few better teachers that Brad Garton. His knowledge of cognition & acoustics, programming, synthesis and virtual instrument design, digital filter theory, etc. are encyclopedic and he has a wonderful gift for making things clear to "us dumb musicians". Terry Pender, another really smart guy, is assistant director of the CMC. R. Luke DuBois, a former student is there as an adjunct position is will be familiar to anyone who has ever double clicked the Max/MSP icon.

Recently there was a trend towards robotics, installations and hardware hacking. Douglas Repetto (who runs dorkbot) is there.

George Lewis, one of the smartest people i have ever met in my life, teaches there now. Fred Lerdahl & Tristan Murail are also teachers there (i don't know either of them).

I don't know any of the current crop of students and i'll don't know what kind of music is coming out of that studio presently, but for someone interested in computer music composition and research and looking to go the academic route (as bankrupt as that often seems), there aren't that many better places to get an education than the CMC.

That said, i would warn you, that in any academic setting, it is easy to lose yourself to the wankery and self-important bullcrap. Learn what you can, sharpen your tools but keep your ear to the ground and never lose sight of the music.

[einklavier]

Thanks a lot, both of you...Yeah, I have a lot to think about, and I don't even start applying for another year. Columbia has other attractions to me of course (a major one being that it's in NYC), but I could see how a lot of the music making could get lost in academia (and don't worry, both of my parents are academics, and I know well of the, um, future that awaits me if I go into academia). I guess I like basic things, I'd like to learn about how to make tape compositions like Varese did and learn techniques like Stockhausen and Babbitt used and work my way up to digital. I probably sound backward but I'd be scared to delve right into the latest technology, because I like to have a grounding in something (I'm the same way in math, I get confused when they say, "Do this in this way because I said so", rather than giving us proofs or reasons as to why this method works and how it came about, even if it's completely extraneous).

But you know I may just decide it's not for me. It's scary at big places like Columbia and UCSB, there's so many courses and one can easily get lost, and adding something I've never done before (computer music) onto that could get crazy. Anyway, though, CREATE looks interesting, similar to CCMC but with less robotics/more computers it seems to me. Unfortunately it appears to only be a Master's course.

[Dustin Hurt]

I don't know if you're just looking to take classes or get a degree in music - but it should be noted that the music department does not offer an undergraduate degree.

There's some interesting things happening there technology wise - George Lewis has done some interesting work with interactivity - but as was previously noted, it's not a mecca of any sorts today. There's certainly more compelling departments out there.

[einklavier]

Yeah, it'd sorta be a "bonus" if I went to Columbia (or anywhere), God knows I'll end up studying history or something despite my artistic fantasies.

[jon abbey]

Yeah, it'd sorta be a "bonus" if I went to Columbia (or anywhere), God knows I'll end up studying history or something despite my artistic fantasies.

FWIW, I went to Columbia undergrad and majored in history (minor in computer science), although to be honest, I barely attended classes, and I've spent the last ten years of my life in the experimental music world fulltime.

I'm anti-wasting money on organized education unless you have a very specific goal in mind (doctor, lawyer), and I'm also of the strong belief that studying music in school, no matter how allegedly strong or weak the program is, is almost always entirely counterproductive and a huge waste of money. teach yourself, keep the cash, there are no jobs out there for anyone anyway and that's not going to change anytime soon.

[Jason Brogan]

I'm also of the strong belief that studying music in school, no matter how allegedly strong or weak the program is, is almost always entirely counterproductive and a huge waste of money. teach yourself, keep the cash, there are no jobs out there for anyone anyway and that's not going to change anytime soon.

seconded!

[sergio]

I'm also of the strong belief that studying music in school, no matter how allegedly strong or weak the program is, is almost always entirely counterproductive and a huge waste of money. teach yourself, keep the cash, there are no jobs out there for anyone anyway and that's not going to change anytime soon.

seconded!

Thirded!!

[snailed]

There are advantages to both, IMO. It really depends on what you want to do. For free improv, eai, and the like, I'd recommend against it. Even for sound art and most of the newer composition discussed here, you'd be better off just buying some software or hardware, some books, or go digging through the trash for broken electronics and start making stuff. But if you want to do something else, maybe it will open some doors. If you want to try and get a job as an academic, god help you, it might be for you. I won't deny that I had some great experiences in school with one particular teacher (and 10x as many bad experiences with 10x as many bad teachers). Whether I would have received that information elsewhere, I can't answer. Personally I'd say that a B.A. in music is worth jack shit, and unless you're planning on going all the way with it, forget it. (I'm currently working in a legal office)

But I think maybe the best advise is not to listen to a forum and do what the fuck you want.

(Hopes and prays this doesn't open a can of worms, I just couldn't leave this thread alone.)

[Jason Brogan]

Personally I'd say that a B.A. in music is worth jack shit, and unless you're planning on going all the way with it, forget it. (I'm currently working in a legal office)

I agree with snailed. I'm still wondering if I want to "go all the way" (that is, pursue a PhD and teach).

Worth mentioning is the importance of those with whom you study. I strongly recommend doing some research about faculty members at different schools and pursue studying with those who interest you most.

I'll recommend CalArts near Los Angeles—lots of interesting things happening in their computer/experimental music programs. The faculty is absolutely outstanding as well.

[d.at]

I'm also of the strong belief that studying music in school, no matter how allegedly strong or weak the program is, is almost always entirely counterproductive and a huge waste of money. teach yourself, keep the cash, there are no jobs out there for anyone anyway and that's not going to change anytime soon.

seconded!

Thirded!!

Fourthed, with the caveat that if you do decide to go to school, you promise to do a lot of research about the courses, the curriculum, the teachers, the facilities, the location and how well your current interests, skills and knowledge tie in with whatever course you may take. At the moment you seem to be blinded by the name, and that is never, ever, ever a good way to approach a) spending a lot of money and b) getting an education (all spoken from a sort of experience)

Of course, good luck with whatever you do pursue!

[jon abbey]

if you do decide to go to school, you promise to do a lot of research about the courses, the curriculum, the teachers, the facilities, the location and how well your current interests, skills and knowledge tie in with whatever course you may take.

and even more important that any of that, what your goal is afterwards, why exactly are you doing this.

too many people in the US go to college simply because it's the next thing to do after high school, plenty do the same for graduate school. I tend to think it's pretty close to a societal scam in most cases, immature kids having their parents pay tens of thousands of dollars so they can party on their own for four years.

[einklavier]

Wow thanks everyone. I have a while yet to think about all of this, plus I have college councilors to do a lot of this research with me in due time. Personally, though, I love to learn. I would stay in school forever if I didn't have to worry about making money. But yeah, I am kinda blinded by the whole Columbia legacy, but it's not without proof of course. Ultimately I just want to get the best education possible and learn as much as I can before life stabs me in the back....haha. And about partying for four years...Work hard, play harder.

[Adam Asnan]

the importance of those with whom you study. I strongly recommend doing some research about faculty members at different schools and pursue studying with those who interest you most.

Yes, this is perhaps the most important aspect to studying within the arts, that and the facilities. I am finishing an MA in acousmatic composition, and my experiences on the course thus far have been invaluable. There are many small details to consider in your own work that may never naturally come to you, if only it is an 'awareness'.

In an academic environment the implications of your compositional decisions will be (lets hope in most cases) under perhaps a more concentrated scrutiny.

If you are working with a figure who's work you respect, or feel as though your aspirations lie in a similar aesthetic to theirs, then there can be little better than to share an environment with them, so that they may become familiar with your work and ideas, and provide support exactly where the support is needed.

Also, your peers may also prove to be of great assistance, if they are attending the same institution for the same reasons as you.. not to mention the collaborative potential for the future