Highly orchestrated jazz records.

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fearandpanic
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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by fearandpanic »

snailed wrote: smaller groups especially, but i'm ok with either. i haven't really done a good thorough look at duke's stuff, so your post got me on that, which i'm grateful for.

i'm especially interested in atypical arrangements that have been pre-planned / written out / whatever using smaller groups. but also definitely interested in the larger and more traditionally orchestrated stuff. the really huge stuff doesn't do it as much on a personal level for me, but i'm definitely still interested in checking out the best examples of it.
It's possibly worth emphasising briefly that big bands and large ensembles (with highlighted soloists) more or less defined the swing era and that this tendency declined as jazz tended to favour small groupings. So jazz being orchestrated with intricate arrangements in the era of Fletcher Henderson and Count Basie (and Benny Goodman, Ellington and others) isn't very unusual or remarkable. I didn't really think of anything along those lines, since your criteria would apply too generally. I presumed you mostly meant things from later generations.

I don't think there's a huge musical distinction to be drawn between smaller ensembles and orchestras when the parts are arranged as a coherent unit: a well arranged small or moderately sized group can easily provide an "orchestral" effect, and a badly scored full orchestra can obviously sound as thin as shit.

Maarten Altena's early 80s ensemble stuff (like Quick Step) on his own label Claxon can be pretty good. Much better than his later stuff on Hat, I think.
Last edited by fearandpanic on Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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jon abbey
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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by jon abbey »

fearandpanic wrote:It's possibly worth emphasising briefly that big bands and large ensembles (with highlighted soloists) more or less defined the swing era, and that this tendency declined as jazz tended to favour small groupings. So jazz being orchestrated with intricate arrangements in the era of Fletcher Henderson and Count Basie (and Benny Goodman, Ellington and others) isn't very unusual or remarkable. I didn't really think of anything along those since your criteria would apply too generally. I presumed you mostly meant things from later generations.
well, the reason I mentioned Ellington specifically is that 1) every jazz listener should know his work, 2) Mingus' composing style owes a lot to him (although maybe not Black Saint as much), and 3) I don't take anything for granted in these days of haphazard listening trajectories. :)

Ellington specifically was always much more interesting to me than the other major leaders fear cites above, in part because he wrote specifically for the sidemen he was working with, which was pretty unusual at the time (maybe Count Basie did this with his rhythm section?). Mingus also always got the most out of his sidemen (at least in his prime era), and I think there's a similar joy/energy underlying the best of each of their work.

the Simon Fell-Composition No. 30 double CD that fear cited earlier is highly recommended, a massively ambitious and impressive work that should be better known than it is.

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fearandpanic
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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by fearandpanic »

jon abbey wrote:Ellington specifically was always much more interesting to me than the other major leaders fear cites above, in part because he wrote specifically for the sidemen he was working with, which was pretty unusual at the time (maybe Count Basie did this with his rhythm section?). Mingus also always got the most out of his sidemen (at least in his prime era), and I think there's a similar joy/energy underlying the best of each of their work.
Yes, definitely. Also, Fletcher Henderson had Louis Armstrong in the group, and he certainly galvanized both the arrangements and everyone else in the group.
the Simon Fell-Composition No. 30 double CD that fear cited earlier is highly recommended, a massively ambitious and impressive work that should be better known than it is.
And to continue the point, Fell said this about Mingus: "Charles Mingus has been a tremendous influence on me, but probably more as a composer and bandleader; I've always tried to get the energy and commitment from my musicians which Mingus at his best gets from his band. Of course, he and Dannie Richmond were a superb rhythm section, but the only influence this might have on my playing would be to try and emulate that level of immersion in and commitment to the music."

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Salty Swift
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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by Salty Swift »

Dan Warburton wrote:I'm just listening to this, and had forgotten how superb it is

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Very ambitious project indeed Dan....though not an easy one to get accustomed to....always had difficulty in finding the time to re-listen to the album, which is a shame as it's a truly monumental piece of work!
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Salty Swift
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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by Salty Swift »

surfer wrote:I was listening to this one this morning:

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Koglmann's Piptet

Probably my favourite Koglmann record....I think Hemingway plays percussion on this one??
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UJM
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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by UJM »

Temperamentally, about as far from BALK SAINT AND THE SINNER LADY as you can get... but if you are looking for atypical arrangements in a small group context, there's good stuff to be discovered in the so-called "West Coast jazz" of the 50's (a tradition Koglmann is explicitly referencing on his Hat dates).

In addition to the aforementioned Bob Graettinger (CITY OF GLASS), there's also Jimmy Giuffre (any of the trio recordings, and, if you can track them down, the collaborations with Lee Konitz and the Capitol quintets) and lesser-known figures like Lennie Niehaus (a little too buttoned-up for my tastes), Lyle "Spud" Murphy (one of the first composers-arrangers to deploy dodecaphony in a jazz context) and Duane Tatro, whose sole leader date for Contemporary -- JAZZ FOR MODERNS -- really is a kind of lost classic of Futurist swing (or something).

Finally, he's been based in NY for a long, long time (Smalls Records just released a recent recording under his leadership), but vibist Teddy Charles recorded some sessions out in California in the early 50's for Prestige, since collected as COLLABORATION: WEST. Features early experiments in serial composition, atonality, modality, and free improvisation.

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MRS
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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by MRS »

fearandpanic wrote:Maarten Altena's early 80s ensemble stuff (like Quick Step) on his own label Claxon can be pretty good. Much better than his later stuff on Hat, I think.
My dream is an Altena Claxon box set. Also, if in the post-bop sense, I'd recommend Mingus Big Band's Live in Time featuring incredible takes on lesser known compositions, highlighted by "Number 29", an obstacle course for trumpets, "Boogie Stop Shuffle" where Kenny Drew, Jr. shines and to take the cake an unbelievable "Sue's Changes" where John Hicks steals the show. Frank Lacy also sings on this recording, very effectively.

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surfer
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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by surfer »

Salty Swift wrote:
Probably my favourite Koglmann record....I think Hemingway plays percussion on this one??
Yes, and Stangl on guitar!

UJM is right about Koglmann's "avant-cool" sound being far on the other side of the spectrum from Mingus' "feverish dream" sound.

Nevertheless, if you are looking for semi-composed, tightly arranged, largish ensemble recordings with atonal elements, definitely check it out, along with A White Line, The Use of Memory, and Orte de Geometrie which are all for largish ensembles.

Cantos is for the largest group he ever worked with though.

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jon abbey
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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by jon abbey »

I first heard Stangl on those Koglmann discs, definitely jumped out at me back in the day.

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patois
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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by patois »

atypical arrangements that have been pre-planned / written out / whatever using smaller groups
sounds quite a bit like Steve Lacy to me, and as it seems no-one has mentioned him yet... highly recommended
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jcg
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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by jcg »

This one was briefly mentioned but, I think, deserves a bit more emphasis:

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Sam Rivers -- Crystals (1974)

Sam Rivers: arranger, conductor, soprano & tenor saxs.
Fred Kelly: soprano, alto & baritone saxs, flute, piccolo
Joe Ferguson: soprano & alto saxs, flute
Roland Alexander: soprano & tenor saxs, flute, African flute
Paul Jeffrey: tenor sax, flute, bassett horn
Sinclair Acey, Ted Daniel, Richard Williams: trumpet, flugelhorn
Charles Majeed Greenlee, Charles Stephens: trombone
Joe Daley: euphonium, tuba
Gregory Maker: bass
Warren Smith: drums
Harold Smith: percussion

cdeupree
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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by cdeupree »

snailed wrote:i'm especially interested in atypical arrangements that have been pre-planned / written out / whatever using smaller groups.
Nobody has mentioned Butch Morris' conductions yet. Some of them fit this bill fairly well.

Maybe some Dave Douglas, like Sanctuary or Witness.

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jon abbey
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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by jon abbey »

I don't think there's much preplanning or composing in those Morris conductions, at least not in the ones I've seen live. the idea is him conducting free improvisers.

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fearandpanic
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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by fearandpanic »

The second side of Bobby Hutcherson's Components (1965) comprises four intricate sextet compositions by Joe Chambers ("Movement," "Juba Dance," "Air," and "Pastoral"), for Freddie Hubbard, Ron Carter, Herbie Hancock and others. The compositions are mostly free-form harmonically and rhythmically (except for the more conventional closing "Pastoral") but clearly worked out in detail. Distinct soloing is gone in favour of compressed and fragmented group interaction.

Another stunning one is Trevor Watts's Moiré Music Sextet, Saalfelden Encore [Cadillac, 1986], with Peter Knight (viola), Simon PIckard (tenor), Paul Rogers (bass), Veryan Weston (piano) and Liam Gencokey (drums). The themes are partly in a wonderful Townships-Kwela mode (the repetition occasionally hinting at Minimalism), and they're picked up in sequence by each player. The parts don't all match up, with one player introducing the next theme on top of the previous one. It's tricky to describe, and it might be a looser handling of themes than the original post had in mind, but I thought I'd squeeze it in here anyway.

Max Roach had a sequence of string quartet records in the 80s. Some contrasted a jazz group with the quartet, but on Survivors (1984) it's just Roach alone. It's a pretty surprising sound. In places the string quartet part is a little repetitive and rudimentary, throwing Roach's rolling rhythms into the spotlight. It's oddly vibrant, definitely worth hearing.
Last edited by fearandpanic on Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

tarfumes
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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by tarfumes »

Bill Dixon's Intents and Purposes might be up yer alley. Unfortunately, it's hella out-of-print (but occasionally shows up on MP3 blogs). Lots of it is notated, including aspects that you wouldn't necessarily think were (like all of the percussion parts).

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martin
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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by martin »

On the European end of the spectrum, there are some nice recordings by Gunter Hampel ("Cavana", "Generator", "Jubilation", "Fresh Heat") and Manfred Schoof ("Reflections"). As to the aforementioned Westbrook and Russell, I like "London Bridge Is Broken Down" (Westbrook) and "Vertical Form VI" (Russell) best - both somewhat disregarded by the public. And yes, the Claxon LPs by Maarten Altena are consistently engaging. I recently digitalized the complete Claxon catalogue which was worth the effort.

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przesyt
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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by przesyt »

Manfred Schoof Orchestra - European Echoes (1969)

Ornette Coleman - Skies of America (1972)

Nationales Vietnamkomitee - Alles Für Den Sieg Des Kämpfenden Vietnamesischen Volkes ! (1972)

Neil Ardley ? "Harmony Of The Spheres" ?

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Gerardo A
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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by Gerardo A »

jon abbey wrote:I first heard Stangl on those Koglmann discs, definitely jumped out at me back in the day.
When I taught a jazz history class back in Yucatan, I always made a point of playing for my students the original Bix Beiderbecke version of "At the Jazz Band Ball" and immediately afterwards the version recorded by Koglmann on "A White Line", in which Stangl plays a magnificent jazz solo that breaks/plays with the melodic/harmonic/rhythmic content (and also manages to sound as a tribute to Django and the swing acoustic guitar players), so they could hear two radically different versions of the same tune. When Burkhard was in Merida last year I told him about that and he seemed very pleased.

Anyway, I'd been meaning to contribute to this thread, so besides seconding many things already mentioned (specially British jazz like the Mike Westbrook and John Surman albums), I have a couple of special suggestions and some other more general ones.

As someone mentioned Jimmy Giuffre, I'd like to recommend this specific record arranged for a jazz piano trio (Bill Evans as a sideman, really playing his ass off with these guys) and 5 saxophones (which include Konitz, Giuffre on baritone and Warne Marsh), which is incredibly beautiful:

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And perhaps my favorite contemporary jazz arranger for mid/large ensembles, Argentinian-born Guillermo Klein who has an amazing mid-size orchestra called Los Guachos:

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Plus the following, which are not "heavily" orchestrated necessarily, but are great hearing nonetheless (specially if one hasn't heard them):

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(In this one Hermeto actually used the Gil Evans Orchestra as his backing band)

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(New-ish stuff from Scandinavia, bordering on nu-jazz sounding at some points but pretty interesting to investigate anyway)

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(That's "The Real Birth of the Cool" by the Claude Thornhill Orchestra with Gil Evans' arrangements)

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(With arrangements by Eric Dolphy)

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Steve Reynolds
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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by Steve Reynolds »

Brotzmann's Stone/Water is a great one that combines improv & charts very successfully - both versions - on Broken English and the live version from Victo

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Re: Highly orchestrated jazz records.

Post by gregh »

Anthony Braxton - Creative Orchestra Music 1976