Ami Yoshida/Toshimaru Nakamura-Soba to Bara (Erstwhile 056)

[jon abbey]

one more post:

the nationalist/patriotic thing: the thing is that it's being used here as a cultural term, not a political one (Japanese people tend to be even more frustrated with their essential one-party government than Americans), so I don't know if either of those really apply, but I was just trying to give people a general idea. maybe there's a better word, but again, I think my meaning is pretty clear.

the separate recordings: I guess it's probably well known, but I tend to hate this approach, in theory and in practice. Sight and the last disc of the Filament box are the two recordings I know where musicians I really like have tried this, and I'm not a fan of either. I'm still shocked at how well this worked, especially in the second half of the disc and especially given that these two had never played a live duo set before. I know that Joe Foster shares my perspective on this type of approach, so I was especially interested to get his feedback on this, and was very happy when he dug it as much as I did (not to speak for him, sorry, Joe).

[howsthatsound]

i'm curious about toshi's soba habit though... how does he like it?

cold or hot, is that what you mean? cold.

i was thinking more about toppings, but ok. ha

[mudd]

no toppings. also, he says the water used to cook the noodles is the best part.

m

[William Hutson]

jon: it's interesting that at the beginning of your press release, you invoke Free Improvisation and its history, but slip in the circumstances of this recording at the end, without relating it to that history. is this intentional?

well, they are improv recordings, just not collectively improvised.

okaaay. clearly you don't want to talk about this. but i guess that is why i brought it up-- the press release seemed so sly about this, usually important, bit of information. most other records that are produced this way, sight comes to mind, force the music and the listening experience to be about this concept. is this aspect of soba to bara is not foregrounded because it would unfairly prejudice the listener? should listener experience it as she would any other duo recording without reducing it to: "wow. they made these recordings blind. listen to how well they sync up. that's neat!"?

did toshi and ami feel that this recording achieved something that they thought was un-reproducable with further traditional duo recordings? was it the spirit of "blindness" that gave the recordings some kind of life that made the artists feel that it wasn't going to get any better than this?

i think this is interesting because, several years ago, i spoke with tetuzi akiyama about off-site, and he told me that one of the major ideas he and toshi would talk about was the idea of group improvisation as multiple, unrelated, concurrent solos. they wanted to play as if they were alone, without reacting musically to each other, but appreciating the combination as listeners. this seems like the ideal way to produce that effect.

i'm sorry if i am pressing this and you really don't want to answer, jon. that's fine. if i were you, i might not want this CD to be thought of as a conceptual work either. i probably just want to talk about it because i'm so eager to hear it, and i don't have it yet.

[William Hutson]

well drat. several posts popped up while i was writing mine. sorry about that. i probably sound dumb now.

[jon abbey]

listeners should experience it however they want. I don't think I was sly about anything, I was quite clear in the PR about the process. should that be the focus? I think for Ami it's quite important that it was made this way, Toshi maybe a little less so, for me (as a listener) it's a secondary thing after the music ('wow, this sounds awesome. wait, and that's how it was made? double wow.')

i probably just want to talk about it because i'm so eager to hear it, and i don't have it yet.

I'm PMing you now, you dork.

[howsthatsound]

i spoke with tetuzi akiyama about off-site, and he told me that one of the major ideas he and toshi would talk about was the idea of group improvisation as multiple, unrelated, concurrent solos. they wanted to play as if they were alone, without reacting musically to each other, but appreciating the combination as listeners.

it's also interesting to note that keith has said that he tries to improvise this way as well, without reacting, or interacting.
of course, mimeo...

(maybe i should just find the original quote)

[howsthatsound]

no toppings. also, he says the water used to cook the noodles is the best part.

m

i was curious about it, so i checked out the wiki page for soba: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soba

very interesting, i'll have to try it.

[Chromosome]

i spoke with tetuzi akiyama about off-site, and he told me that one of the major ideas he and toshi would talk about was the idea of group improvisation as multiple, unrelated, concurrent solos. they wanted to play as if they were alone, without reacting musically to each other, but appreciating the combination as listeners.

it's also interesting to note that keith has said that he tries to improvise this way as well, without reacting, or interacting.

This is an interesting topic. I'm a bit surprised by your paraphrase of what Keith said. It seems more like he just doesn't react in conventional ways.

Wasn't there a discussion about this kind of listening/playing recently in another thread? I don't mean to derail this thread.

[jkudler]

were the tracks on this disc created as solos qua solos, or were they always intended to "fit" with the other's track?

this is really explicitly clear in the PR above, I think, but if not, the answer is the latter.

i expected that, but i do think it's a bit ambiguous above. it's clear it was intended for eventual combining, but i was speaking more to mental process, a way of approaching the performance.

by the way, i don't mean to be making any qualitative implications - i think a natural part of any improvisation is chance, kismet, whatever.

edit: a bunch of posts came up- i'm just leaving this as is anyways. . .

-jesse

[jon abbey]

the music was solely created for the purposes of this duo project, it wouldn't have existed otherwise, if that makes it clearer.

[jon abbey]

the Keith quote in question is from here, and should be read in context:

http://www.erstwhilerecords.com/catalog/030_notes.html

and even in context, I'm not sure he totally got across what he was trying to say, but that's the reference.

[al jones]

I'm sorry but phở is far more inspiring than soba, and might have made a far better record. Toshi's loss.

Now realizing I left Philly without snagging a copy of this.

[Dan Warburton]

I'm sorry but phở is far more inspiring than soba, and might have made a far better record.

Been there, done that.. http://www.paristransatlantic.com/magaz ... ext.html#9 (scroll down - last review in section)

[Alastair]

the music was solely created for the purposes of this duo project, it wouldn't have existed otherwise, if that makes it clearer.

I think this overrides anything else.

I'm relaxed enough to wait for neuschnee before ordering this, but still very interested to hear it.

[mudd]

managed to give it a listen last night and it killed me.

the uncanny interaction is there, and i spent a little bit of time trying to figure it out, trying to spot a flaw in the weave. nothing.

but eventually ami's performance overwhelmed that completely. i've never heard her anything close to this before. the duo show in tokyo last year was beautiful, but ami was so deep into herself she was practically whispering. this is so far on the other side of the coin, i barely recognize her.

it's always a pleasing shock to hear a musician you thought you understood knock you over from an entirely different direction.

oh and toshi's there too, don't let me overlook that. full of texture and trill, but without demand. i think this is where the overlaid tracks were so effective: toshi made the music he knew ami should have, but without pushing her to find her way there at all.

fantastic disc, but seriously i was exhausted after one listen. couldn't even force myself to put on something else.

m

[howsthatsound]

the Keith quote in question is from here, and should be read in context:
http://www.erstwhilerecords.com/catalog/030_notes.html
and even in context, I'm not sure he totally got across what he was trying to say, but that's the reference.

actually it's here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq8l18Xk ... re=related at about 2:50

here's part of what i'm referring to, but he goes on at length:

...and i think learning not to listen is an incredibly important thing to do...

i of course think the aestheticization of non-intention is very important, it keeps us from stagnation by introducing difficulty and uncertainty that keeps music fresh and continually supplies artists with substance to cut their teeth on. certainly some of the gestures common to this music (EAI) must have originated from mistake.

in this case, it's one of the things i appreciate most about this record. there are points where ami ruthlessly obliterates toshi, and the effect is incredibly enticing to these ears, especially because toshi does not react, but succumbs willingly to being ravaged. it makes an absolutely thrilling game of the sociology and etiquette of modern improvisation. but were it done in the context of "normal" improvisation, i imagine most would have considered it rude, but it's that brash rudeness that is so exciting. something that may not have taken place otherwise.

[joeperucki]

i am slightly surprised that so little has been made of the fact that these are not, in fact, duo improvisations, but solos, recorded separately, in isolation, and layered together afterward. i am in no way a purist regarding improvisation, and it makes no difference to me how the results were achieved. for those of you out there who have heard this already, does knowing this process change the music at all? does it sound any different than you would imagine a traditional duo improvisation between these two players to sound?

I received my copy last Sunday and listened to it 4 times - 3 times pre knowing and 1 time post... Didn't read the PR and just read William's post yesterday (my wife overheard a conversation with Jon and Richard on Sunday and told me it was not improvised - I assumed it was composed (of course I could not believe that either when I heard it)). Listened to it this morning and feel no different - it's still as brilliant/intense/concentrated of a record as the first listen. I have to admit I was concerned that I missed something the first few times and that it would fall in my mind after I knew of the process they used to make it. Again, no change in mind and looking forward to dive deeper - it sounds like a perfectly cohesive duo. Seems impossible to be true (Jon, must have been some guidelines at least - right?) - they are mind readers.

I also woud like to note that I now refer to the ErstAmi's before Soba to Bara as "Ami Lite"

Lastly, Jon thanks for the delay in neuschnee. Gives me more time to focus on Ami/Toshi

[jon abbey]

nice, Joe, glad you're digging it, thanks for the feedback...

Jon, must have been some guidelines at least - right?

no, none.

[joeperucki]

in this case, it's one of the things i appreciate most about this record. there are points where ami ruthlessly obliterates toshi, and the effect is incredibly enticing to these ears, especially because toshi does not react, but succumbs willingly to being ravaged. it makes an absolutely thrilling game of the sociology and etiquette of modern improvisation. but were it done in the context of "normal" improvisation, i imagine most would have considered it rude, but it's that brash rudeness that is so exciting. something that may not have taken place otherwise.

For me, great post.
There is still so much luck to get it this good. How many times has this been tried before and scrapped (or should have scrapped)? It sounds like even Ami/Toshi did not expect results this high. I'd imagine there is a much higher chance of success with only 2 artists as opposed to more.