Newlondonwhat?

[Dan Warburton]

The thread? Yes, about time.

[JrF]

it is fair to say that erstwhile isn't a main distributor for this music

I just want to set the record straight on this comment I made: it comes from an extremely well informed stand point as an ex distributor myself - delaing with over 700 labels & pretty much all the labels big & small in the area we handled, but I always, without exception, don't agree on labeling any distributor as a 'main' one. There is always simply so much going on out there that it's an impossible comment to make in my eyes. Of course it's true that Erstwhile is a big player in this area in terms of an outlet for recordings both in the US & via mail order all over the world, so on those simple terms it is indeed a main distributor - it's just I don't agree with the terms these definitions are made on & I base that on many years working in that area myself. It wasn't meant as an insult to Erstwhile or Jon, but I think any comment I make about those two can be seen as such by some.

jez, posts like that don't help anything. it would be better for everyone if you didn't make them.

actually they do help & there is 110% no difference between me raising difficult issues (whether i'm right or wrong in my opinions) than other poeple doing so & it can be a welcome change on IHM for there to be an open & frank discussion as has taken place here, that has indeed involved a bit of overheating, but has resulted in several interesting points being raised. More interestingly perhaps in this context I feel very strongly that whether my posts, Richard's post, Jon's posts or anyones post 'help' is simply a very very individual thing. As I said Mudd don't censor this thread yet - people are starting to talk calmly to each other right now & I think most of us have said what we feel needed to be said & are now thinking about better things to talk about. That's really important for an open & critical debate.

ps. I am however going to stop posting on this thread right now - not because you asked Mudd but just because I think it's run it's natural course as it stands. Still perhaps a few of the players discussed could be flagged up in new, more specific threads so we all avoid this lumping them altogether thing - which, as others have said doesn't actually make much sense.

[sergio]

Wow, this thread is overwhelming absurd. I have a bit of a headache now reading through it. But some comments really stick out such as:

from Jon Abbey

but at some point, they need to crystallize into strong statements to matter much outside of their own community

WTF?
maybe they aren't bothered with anyone outside their community? Why should they be concerned with impressing anyone from the outside? What the hell do you know? and furthermore, how did you get involved in this music anyways? Seriously!

From Richard Pinnell

Post-Prevostian is a fantastic term

No this is not a fantastic term. Well maybe it is, but what "exactly" does this mean? Please explain!

[jon abbey]

hehehe...

maybe they aren't bothered with anyone outside their community?

ok.

Why should they be concerned with impressing anyone from the outside?

because it's a worldwide music/community, but of course they don't have to be.

What the hell do you know?

uh...

and furthermore, how did you get involved in this music anyways? Seriously!

out of love, and a desire to please and/or upset you.

No this is not a fantastic term. Well maybe it is, but what "exactly" does this mean? Please explain!

he was being sarcastic, he doesn't like it either. what it means is that someone sounds like they were directly influenced by Eddie, and I'm hardly the only one to note that about Blasen.

thanks for your feedback!

[simon reynell]

The first time I saw Seymour Wright play was back in 2000 in a duo with Keith Rowe, so I've always thought of him as as much post-Rovian as post-Prevostian. (He was making the mistake of playing with someone from a different generation)

As for Sebastian Lexer, he's surely more post-Tilburian, which also makes him post-Cardevian, or at least post-AMMian. Speaking of which there's yet another concert coming up in London next week, this time not at Cafe Oto:

Monday 23rd March 2009, 7:30 pm,
Great Hall, Goldsmiths, University of London, New Cross, London SE14
Sebastian Lexer - piano+
Fréderic Blondy - piano
John Edwards - double bass

It's a kind of Edwardian post-Blondian thing and should be great.

[Richard Pinnell]

From Richard Pinnell

Post-Prevostian is a fantastic term

No this is not a fantastic term. Well maybe it is, but what "exactly" does this mean? Please explain!

No, I was not being serious sergio, I think its a silly term, particularly when it is being used in a derogatory manner as it was in the post in question. I am on record stating that there is a post-AMM feel to Blasen, which I think is a good thing, but not purely Prevost. Like Simon I can hear a lot of Keith's influence on Seymour's music too, though really he has very much his own voice.

[Richard Pinnell]

The first time I saw Seymour Wright play was back in 2000 in a duo with Keith Rowe, so I've always thought of him as as much post-Rovian as post-Prevostian. (He was making the mistake of playing with someone from a different generation)

As for Sebastian Lexer, he's surely more post-Tilburian, which also makes him post-Cardevian, or at least post-AMMian. Speaking of which there's yet another concert coming up in London next week, this time not at Cafe Oto:

Monday 23rd March 2009, 7:30 pm,
Great Hall, Goldsmiths, University of London, New Cross, London SE14
Sebastian Lexer - piano+
Fréderic Blondy - piano
John Edwards - double bass

It's a kind of Edwardian post-Blondian thing and should be great.

Heh, careful Simon, someone will start a thread wondering what Post-Edwardian is and before you know it we will be discussing the double bass' relationship to the first decade of the twentieth century...

Another gig I heard about this morning, they keep coming thick and fast:

Café Oto, April 14th

John Edwards (double bass)
Guillaume Viltard (double bass)

Jamie Coleman (trumpet)
Grundik Kasyansky (electronics)
Sebastian Lexer (piano+)
Seymour Wright (saxophone)

Paul Abbott (electronics)
Daichi Yoshikawa (electronics)

[Daniel Jones]

Sheesh, IHM is a funny old place isn't it! Wouldn't want it any other way though I suppose!

I personally find this place quite intimidating at times also and I wouldn't normally post but I feel as if I should seeing as I'm one of the names that has been brought up during this thread.

I don't believe that there is a 'London Scene' and I think the labelling of it is unhelpful. Particularly compared to Japan, Korea or even London in the 90's - I don't think there is anything of that scale occuring at the moment. It also seems to me that these locations were allowed to flourish of their own accord first and then attention inevitably resulted seperately. Apologies if this statement is incorrect.

What is happening in England is that a few new names are starting to pop up and put the odd gig on or record out. I think people are starting to find their feet and develop a strong individual aesthetic whilst also looking outwards towards others and adapting it into their working methods. It is nice and it's a positive thing, it's in flux and I hope I haven't undersold it.

We also benefit from having extremely energetic, generous and hard-working people who can, and do, act as catalysts and are enthusiastic about what they see happening. Richard, Jez and Simon are all really important, positive and established influences on, me particularly, and a few others I know who are starting to put our heads above the ground. We also are lucky to have people like Patrick and Sarah with Compost and Height, Small But Perfectly Formed, David Papapostolou and Daichi Yoshikawa, etc...who are now begining to put on gigs and set up labels. It's good and they do it through their love and belief in the music. (by the way if I'm missing names out please don't take it the wrong way, no snubs are intended...!) I don't see it as having anything to do with personal gain or monetary benefit.

Things will take time though and some of the posts in this thread I have found incredibly discouraging. Putting pressure on to something that doesn't need it, shoo-ing it along at a pace it is not accustomed too or desires and ultimately doesn't really exist!

It is true that there does seem to be something forming around the workshops with Eddie Prevost. However the individuals attending these are far too disparate to crystalise into a 'scene' and I also get the feeling that it's not really in their interest to do so anyway. It is also inevitable that we take influence from other musicians of whatever age, location or generation and I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing. I know I don't make music that I wouldn't want to be compared to at the same level as a piece by Toshi Nakamura, Otomo Yoshihde or Keith Rowe and I don't think I know anyone else who doesn't think likewise.

It's not going to happen straight away but it might (and I think some of the musicians definitley will and are extraordinarliy close already!) but lets not shoot it down before it's had the chance! I hope one day to produce a piece of music that I think is truly exciting, new and vibrant - I haven't got there yet and sometimes reading this board makes me want to give up completely but I love the music and the people I meet doing it. I can't stop and I don't really want to! Besides I don't think 'Leaving Room' the duo disc I put out with David last year is that bad - maybe even pretty good in some aspects!

I need to stop now because I'm starting to want to delete and alter the post through fear of hypocrisy, arrogance, contradictions, bad grammar and spelling and the fact that I may put noses out of joint. I can't do arguing - I really can't! I wanted to write more but words are failing me now.

Hope this makes sense!

Thanks.
Dan.

[JrF]

well, Daniel - I for one am glad you didn't delete it or not post it. It's a good post (& no, i'm not saying that cos I get a mention !).

what comes across in Daniel's post is the enjoyment & the energy, the drive etc - but (and it's an important but) what perhaps is a partial 'link' that a lot of the disparate players that have been mentioned or partially refered to in this thread share is the way in which they keep hold of those things & combine it with the creative rigour with which they pursue thier impulses.

Daniel is a good example of this. He is open about being on a path ( aren't we all always anyway ? at least we should be).

i'm lucky enough to have beenable to set up 4 or 5 of his first live performances: the first an opening solo set for myself & Lee Patterson in Brighton (Paul Morgan was also on the bill btw), the second as a duet with myself on the Avva concert we arranged in conjunction with Patrick & pals in Nottingham, the third of a solo from Dan & trio of Dan, Ivan Palacky (seriously, anyone reading this who hasn't come across Ivan's stuff I strongly advise doing so) & myself & the fifth a duo with myself again at Chisenhale, London. What struck me about Dan's playing was his pacing. I remember before the first solo concert he did he was openly honest about feeling nervous & indeed the venue was quite full laregly of folks who wouldn't have heard a great deal of very quiet, measured live music. Me & Lee & indeed the entire audience were totally drawn into Dan's very focused and musical placing of his choices.

In terms of the recordings that are available by Dan then the duo disc with David is worth getting hold of & also the free download on compost & height of his solo at seeds & bridges. The afternoon trio set by Dan, Ivan & myself will be the first release in the engraved glass . point engraved edition series (May / June time) & is being released simply because we are all pleased with it & as far as i'm concerned I simply want to release music by both Dan & Ivan - both of whom I hope will feature on solo releases later in the series (& indeed elsewhere !).

I'd be quite interested to know a bit more about the trio disc that started this thread too. I haven't got a copy yet & I too found it a bit strange that it was released without two of the artists knowing it was going to be. However Paul isn't a sinister chap in the slightest & I reckon his enthusiasm probably got the better of him on that front. Perhaps an interesting point related to this is to do with whether the sessions were recorded with the intention of a release at some point or just as trying things out ? & does that matter anyway. All that bothers me is whether the artists involved are ok with it being released. Dan's ok with it I believe.

ps. & yes, i'm aware of the fact that I said in my last post that I wasn't going to post on this thread anymore - but to be honest reading Dan's post kind of re ignited the positive !

[Daniel Jones]

Hmm, I've just been doing the washing up and thinking about my post...

I want to get in there before anyone else does - I think it reads as if I say 'there's no scene' and then go on to actually describe one!

Maybe there is a scene! I know that I don't feel part of anything large or grand though...

No! I still don't think there's a 'London Scene'. I just think I should get things straighter in my head and take more time over my points...!

I'm confused.

[mudd]

you guys do realize that a pool of musicians who play shows together, a venue or two where they play shows, and an audience that comes and then comes back... is all that constitutes a scene, right? doesn't have to be grand scale.

there was some divergence earlier when people took the thread to indicate the search for some sort of new genre. that would be rather ridiculous, but that's not what we're looking for at all. i think the confusion about that point is why this thread took a dive in the middle pages as it was.

but if someone wanted to, y'know, list off some of the lesser known musicians who are playing these shows, describe a little about what they do, and if/where they could be heard from a couple thousand miles away, that would help a lot. some names were dropped early on, but not with enough detail to convey any of the excitement the people engaged in the scene actually experience.

m

[Yii]

does anyone know the contactable email address of the slightly off kilter? txx.

[JrF]

Paul's (runs slightly off kilter) email is:

paulshark70@hotmail.com

[binarymilton]

dunno if I'm stoking old coals here, but someone just pointed me to this thread, knowing I'd be interested.

I don't think there is anything "new" or epochal happening in London in terms of methodologies of free improvisation/eai.

The closest thing I've noticed to anything approaching anything like a shared approach in any of the current London players is perhaps a tendency towards irreverence, trial-and-error, process-as-music, playfulness, juxtaposition and perhaps even a certain willed exploratory clumsiness. In this respect, there is a direct link to Eddie Prevost's weekly session, because...

1. For quite a few of its long-term regulars, some or all of those qualities above are a positive aspect of their practice that makes their art strong (eg Seymour Wright, Ross Lambert, Romuauld Wadych)

2. Eddie usually says a few words at the start of those Friday workshops suggesting that participants try to find something new in their relationship to their instruments; he's often implied that that's more valuable than bringing along pre-conceived techniques and ideas. While it's almost impossible to do the latter (you can't reinvent your instrument at 7pm every Friday) it's good to try, even if it results in bad music. Quite a few attendees of the workship carry this over into their gigs: there's a lack of preciousness and an openness to accident.

3. The fact that anyone can just turn up invites a certain amount of juxtaposition by default. There's less of this now, but you often might find yourself duetting with someone who had never heard of (or heard any) free improvisation before, or someone who was very much from a fixed genre (eg jazz or rock). Sometimes this would produce a total car-crash of a piece. After a while, you would get to rather *like* these pile-ups, and learn how to recuperate them.

I may well be projecting some of my own interests onto other people above. But apart from those traits from regular workshop attendees, I doubt you'll ever get a homogenous scene - in terms of a single, wholly original musical movement - coming out of London. There are, quite apart from anything, too many players.

Like one or two other posters here, I too really enjoyed that period when Mattin and Joel Stern and Tim Goldie were playing and organizing regular gigs around London. But I'm singling out those three names because they were and are very idiosyncratic players, not because they had a shared methodology or anything. To say what I like about their music would be to reiterate things I said about Eddie P's workshop above.

One other thing: there has been a general reticence to record and self-promote in the London improv scene. I think a lot of players really are more interested in live practice - making an interesting situation – than recording a CD.