Newlondonwhat?

[Dan Warburton]

I'm quite proud of getting Keith Rowe and Toshi Nakamura to work together initially

Was that your idea, or did Bruno Meillier's invitation for the pair to perform in Saint Etienne in June 2001 come first (not that it makes much difference)?

[jon abbey]

off topic, apologies:

I'm quite proud of getting Keith Rowe and Toshi Nakamura to work together initially

Was that your idea, or did Bruno Meillier's invitation for the pair to perform in Saint Etienne in June 2001 come first (not that it makes much difference)?

in October 2000, I was working with Toshi via e-mail on 'do'. I told him that I was going away for the weekend to Boston to see AMM, in the Autumn Uprising festival. he said "give my best to Keith, I just saw AMM here recently and they were great" (paraphrased from memory). at the show, I was talking to Keith and passed on Toshi's hello, and Keith looked at me very seriously (like only he can) and said "Toshi is one of the few most important musicians around today" (something that actually hadn't really occurred to me at that point, as I wasn't very into Toshi's work pre-'do').

so I thought about it for a few days and asked them to do a record for me soon after (even though I honestly couldn't hear it in my head, I went with my instincts), which is when the St. Etienne show got set up, I believe.

[Dan Warburton]

off topic, apologies

I don't think it's off topic at all, in that it helps explains how "scenes" come about - venues are important, sure, but the input of festival promoters is too (cf MIMEO).

[simon reynell]

aside from the examples already mentioned, people wishing to hear recent music relevant to this thread could try 'leaving room' (Davis Papapostolou & Daniel Jones) on adjacent, 'audible silence' by Jez riley French on 'engraved glass', or the brand new 'bear ground' (Matt Milton, Patrick Farmer, David Thomas & Ryan Jewell) on 'creative sources', which I heard for the first time today and enjoyed a lot.
Otherwise keep reading Richard Pinnell's blog [http://www.thewatchfulear.com/] or look at available downloads on the Compost and Height website [compostandheight.blogspot.com] - though the thoroughly international nature of what is available there should be a further warning against any rush to define a specifically 'Newlondonwhat?' genre.

[hatta]

While I think its great that the local punters are excited about the London scene (really - it is a great thing to be into what's going on around you), I can't see that there seems much of actual interest. Listening to the examples that Simon cites it pretty much just seems like the same old stuff that's been going on for a while. Perhaps several different micro-scenes are getting together and cross fertilizing somewhat but it seems like less of the sum of its parts to me. And before people jump on me for saying that we aren't hearing what's been going on as its all live shows and what not, I'd like to point out that tons of this same stuff is available on the Interlace site. I've been going back through their archives, which end almost exactly a year ago, and it just seems like the same "post-EFI"/"Prevost oriented AMM" mingling that we've been hearing for ages. Sure this isn't up to the minute, current Cafe Oto actions, but there is a lot of the same names there, ad hoc collaborations, classical, jazz, eai, electronic, field recordings and such. I'm pretty skeptical that these same type of actions, just moved to a different venue would constitute strikingly new music.

Its amusing to me as I was bicycling into work today I was just thinking that the European wing of current improv trends, including the UK, seems to have really dead ended lately mostly (it seems from afar) by turning inward and compartmentalizing. Scenes like Korea, the second wave in Japan and several pockets in the US seem to me to actually be exciting with the potential for both further developments and deeper explorations.

[JrF]

christ....(refering to the negative posts by the usual suspects)

you know when you listen to someone talking passionatly about things that they feel are creative and exciting it's a good thing to hear.

then when you hear someone being critical of something but doing so in an open and explorative way, that too is a good thing to hear.

but when you hear someone being closed minded & as predicatable as hell....! well, christ !

I can't enjoy the music of a whole ton of people (I guess no more or less than anyone else) who are involved in improvisation or eai or whatever, but it's really easy to tell the difference between people who one just doesn't enjoy (which is fine) & those who are clearly not doing it for any real or sincere reason.

as for Cafe Oto: come on, don't knock them for creating a venue that allows & encourages other musics - it was exactly this kind of miserable sour faced crap that led to the decline of many of the venues that existed before & it is a key reason why audiences often feel excluded. It's like a closed shop attitude. The thing about cafe oto & the current scene in London (& indeed elsewhere in the UK right now) is that audiences are growing & that has some very positive results in terms of new people getting interested & also meaning that the performers aren't just playing to the same audience all the time.

As for the comments about the lack of anything interesting re available recordings, well apart from questions of personal taste & people wearing blinkers, there are lots of recordings coming out & some will be good, some will be bad & some will be uninteresting perhaps, but lets not resort to kicking things down whilst they are bubbling away based on a restricted or limited view or on a reaction to the fact that one isn't involved or relevant to them.

i'm looking forward to things....

[maRi]

I just want to express my enthusiasm for Live at Café Oto by Alan Wilkinson, John Edwards and Steve Noble that Dan mentioned. What a fantastic record!
I haven't heard all of the Interlace recordings, but the Mark Sanders/Phil Durrant and Furt sets are great.

[jon abbey]

Jez, I'd say that yours was the least productive post in the whole thread so far. both Robert and myself have listened to a pretty large chunk of the available recordings under discussion, and we're allowed to have our opinions just like anyone else. FWIW, one of the musicians mentioned here e-mailed me earlier to say he agreed with my take in general.

I'm also looking forward to things, as always.

[surfer]

those who are clearly not doing it for any real or sincere reason.

...

Why would they be doing it then?

the money? the chicks? the fame? the pension?

[Richard Pinnell]

Absolutely priceless...

So I exchange a joke or two with Luka just before I leave for work and return to find that we have spawned a thread discussing the merits of a new genre, complete with the usual suspects slinging mud and a whole load of utter nonsense presumed about nothing.

And all after twenty-eight posts, but not one of them written by anyone that even lives in London. For christ's sake eight of the musicians mentioned in this thread don't even live in London. Jez probably lives closer to Helsinki... Seriously guys this place gets better by the day. Newlondonwhat? was a joke. Do me a favour please....

Now if we are to have a sensible discussion about the current state of improvised music in London then I would not hesitate to say that it is currently more exciting and interesting than it has been for about a decade. There are a few key factors I would point to. There are indeed a number of new musicians coming through that are playing in London. Paul Abbott, Ute Kangiesser, Daichi Yoshikawa, Matt Milton, David, Daniel, Patrick, Dom, Phil Julian, and a dozen or so more names again bubbling under the surface. There is definitely a sense of youth there, indeed combining with the older generations of musicians.

Although only one factor in the current resurgence, the work that Eddie P has put in with his workshops is very important and should not be underestimated or pigeonholed in some ridiculous manner into any one style of playing. How many people in this thread have heard Paul Abbott's or Daichi Yoshikawa's rough electronics? or Grundik Kasyasnkys for that matter? I wouldn't know where to classify any of those and yet they all play in the workshops weekly. Post-Prevostian is a fantastic term. I haven't a clue what it means though, and certainly noone that has not heard any of these musicians play recently can know either.

Another key point is the lack of recordings. There is definitely a sense in the city of needing to just play together in live situations or in private groupings. There is generally a feeling that recordings are not as important as simply playing together often. Maybe that influence does come from Mr Prevost to some degree, who knows? Perhaps the recordings will come perhaps they won't. Currently the excitement about the city is not based on the act of recording CDs though.

Café Oto has indeed proved to be a real catalyst for the music. the place has provided a fully equipped, cheap relaxed venue at a time when a lot of new faces have appeared both as musicians and audience members. The numbers of people attending gigs are rising steadily, the age of people at gigs is lowering and the male/female mix levelling out. Other cities may still have more interesting music but few can boast these kind of recent developments.

Above all there has now settled into place a complete disregard for the ghettoisation of the music so loved by this forum. As I think Simon said above concert bills are mixes of styles and age groups, and people are open to hearing a wider range of improvised music. So yes Wilkinson/Noble/Edwards have an album out called Live at Cafe oto, but then so do Oceans of silver and blood, and although they were not on the same bill it wouldn't surprise me if they had been.

[Richard Pinnell]

but I think sometimes cross-fertilization can be counterproductive, as in your examples of "young musicians working with older generations of improvisers". in most cases, I don't think this helps the younger musicians to find their voices, I think it leads to more of a hodgepodge aesthetic and a lot of pleasant but non-essential music.

And yet you cited the London of Mattin, Joel Stern and Anthony Guerra as the most exciting period of London improv, all three played regularly at Eddie Prevost's workshop during their stay in London, just as the younger generations are now.

Mark Wastell played regularly with the older muscians in London before truly finding his voice as well.

[jon abbey]

the usual suspects slinging mud and a whole load of utter nonsense presumed about nothing.

totally unnecessarily insulting, Richard. everything here has been written quite calmly until you and Jez posted. I spun off the thread so that we could talk about this, since three people seemed quite excited about the topic and I wanted to know what they were excited about.

Newlondonwhat? was a joke.

maybe the term was, but the point wasn't. the term isn't the point, the topic is.

Now if we are to have a sensible discussion about the current state of improvised music in London

yes, that was the point.

Another key point is the lack of recordings. There is definitely a sense in the city of needing to just play together in live situations or in private groupings. There is generally a feeling that recordings are not as important as simply playing together often. Maybe that influence does come from Mr Prevost to some degree, who knows? Perhaps the recordings will come perhaps they won't. Currently the excitement about the city is not based on the act of recording CDs though.

well, not sure what the Prevost influence is there, as he's got a pretty sizable discography at this point.

and it's all well and fine to not care about recordings, but then you can't expect the rest of the world to care about what you're doing, since they have no way to hear it. that doesn't mean they're not interested (obviously we are), which is why I started the thread.

[Richard Pinnell]

the usual suspects slinging mud and a whole load of utter nonsense presumed about nothing.

totally unnecessarily insulting, Richard.

Not really. A load of utter nonsense was indeed presumed about nothing. I calmly stated that.

and it's all well and fine to not care about recordings, but then you can't expect the rest of the world to care about what you're doing,

I'm not really sure many people do expect that.

[jon abbey]

but I think sometimes cross-fertilization can be counterproductive, as in your examples of "young musicians working with older generations of improvisers". in most cases, I don't think this helps the younger musicians to find their voices, I think it leads to more of a hodgepodge aesthetic and a lot of pleasant but non-essential music.

And yet you cited the London of Mattin, Joel Stern and Anthony Guerra as the most exciting period of London improv, all three played regularly at Eddie Prevost's workshop during their stay in London, just as the younger generations are now.

Mark Wastell played regularly with the older muscians in London before truly finding his voice as well.

sure, I'm not saying it never helps, every case is different, and I wasn't talking about Eddie specifically. I do think all three of those musicians cited above did more interesting work on their own, I was thinking of the 2000+ label specifically, which from my outsider perspective had more potential than anything I'm aware of in London now (Seymour Wright was part of that also, as you know).

basically I think it's much harder for a new and compelling scene to blossom in a city where there's already an existing improv scene, like NYC or London. for instance, when Otomo and Sachiko visit Seoul, they play with the local handful of musicians, because there isn't a prior generation there to play with. when they visited London, they didn't play with any of the people you namecheck.

by the way, I didn't say the "London of Mattin, Joel Stern and Anthony Guerra was the most exciting period of London improv", just that it seemed to me to have more potential than today's scene does. the most exciting period of London improv was probably sometime in the late seventies and early eighties, that's when I think Derek Bailey was at his peak, John Stevens was still alive, AMM had just formed in the trio incarnation, etc. but I wasn't there or around at the time, that's just my feeling based on the available evidence.

[jon abbey]

and it's all well and fine to not care about recordings, but then you can't expect the rest of the world to care about what you're doing,

I'm not really sure many people do expect that.

obviously not if they aren't interested in recordings, but to me that's a bit sad. this is an increasingly worldwide music, and part of that is recorded documents.

[Richard Pinnell]

basically I think it's much harder for a new and compelling scene to blossom in a city where there's already an existing improv scene, like NYC or London. for instance, when Otomo and Sachiko visit Seoul, they play with the local handful of musicians, because there isn't a prior generation there to play with. when they visited London, they didn't play with any of the people you namecheck. .

No but why would they? How would they? They don't know the new musicians any more than you do. The Korean players had been playing for much longer and had released a lot more music on CD.

However (and FWIW) when Otomo came over in November he did play with Ben Drew (a regular playing partner of Otomo and Sachiko) and Louisa Martin who is very much one of the new younger blood coming through.

[jon abbey]

No but why would they? How would they? They don't know the new musicians any more than you do. The Korean players had been playing for much longer and had released a lot more music on CD.

I don't think they'd released anything when Otomo/Sachiko began playing with them (Joe can weigh in here), but you're missing my point. if the older generation doesn't exist (like in Seoul), then visiting musicians would be much more likely to play with the younger crew when they came to town, no matter how unknown they were.

[Richard Pinnell]

I don't think they'd released anything when Otomo/Sachiko began playing with them (Joe can weigh in here), but you're missing my point. if the older generation doesn't exist (like in Seoul), then visiting musicians would be much more likely to play with the younger crew when they came to town, no matter how unknown they were.

I'm not missing your point, just not fully agreeing with it. Three years ago when Otomo put together a large group of musicians in London he chose them mainly from the younger generation of the time. He played with younger musicians in November as well as older, and really I don't see what the difference is between the youngest generations today playing with Otomo or playing with the likes of Eddie Prevost or John Butcher, or Mark Wastell or Phil Durrant anyway?

[jon abbey]

really I don't see what the difference is between the youngest generations today playing with Otomo or playing with the likes of Eddie Prevost or John Butcher, or Mark Wastell or Phil Durrant anyway?

on one hand, you're talking about a younger, exciting group of musicians starting to emerge. if they're the only show in town (like in Seoul), then they'll get their pick of the venues, the funding, the visiting musicians, all of which help them develop faster.

that's all overly simplistic, but I was just trying to give a specific example as to why I think it's much harder for a city with an established improv scene to develop a strong younger generation (Berlin is an exception, and I don't know enough about the history there to know why exactly).

[Richard Pinnell]

on one hand, you're talking about a younger, exciting group of musicians starting to emerge. if they're the only show in town (like in Seoul), then they'll get their pick of the venues, the funding, the visiting musicians, all of which help them develop faster.

The thing is they do now get the pick of the venues, simply because they have the energy right now. Check out the calendar of gigs at my blog, the younger names are just as much represented as older. The whole point though is that people are not thinking about generations gaps or new styles of playing versus old. Everyone is playing together. There is no funding, and there are very few visiting musicians.

that's all overly simplistic, but I was just trying to give a specific example as to why I think it's much harder for a city with an established improv scene to develop a strong younger generation (Berlin is an exception, and I don't know enough about the history there to know why exactly).

But London (like Berlin) has proved again and again the opposite of what you say to be true. The generation of musicians around the turn of the millennium (Wastell, Rhodri, Angharad, Matt Davis, Mattin, Seymour etc...) were heavily influenced by the generation before. As were the generation before that, and as will be this next generation coming through now.