Roland Kayn

[Stephen]

I am looking for some writing about Kayn and his techniques/processes, specifically the cybernetic work, though really anything is better than nothing. He seems wildly under-documented (in English). The only stuff I can find are the (extremely flowery) articles by Massimo Ricci (re-printed in part in Paris Transatlantic) which are very much in the descriptive-review vein and not much use for my purposes.

Does anyone know of any interviews, articles by, articles on, or books in which his work is discussed? (in english). If not then does anyone here know a bit about how he works. I have heard that their are some acoustic transformations (ala Lucier) involved in his process, right? does he use concr?te-type tape techniques? or does he use more Tudor/Mumma/Behrman style diy electronics? or maybe something totally different altogether.

Also interested in the fact that he takes a lot of his inspiration from information theory, rather than music. I am thinking maybe people like John von Neumann or Norbert Weiner influenced him, but does anyone know for sure?

For those interested in his music his website is about the best resource I have yet found, offering a discography (with the in print cds for sale - though rather expensive), list of publications (mostly articles in german or polish periodicals). literature (incl. the full Ricci texts). For those in the US some of the CDs are available from Beta-Lactam Ring.

[Dan Warburton]

Can't help you here, but I've put an APB out for Mr Ricci, who may be able to enlighten us all further. The only Kayn I know a little is Tektra (which Massimo sent me himself), which is pleasant enough, though doesn't hold my attention. I liked him in Gruppo though.

[Dan Warburton]

This just in from the man in Rome:

Kayn has never given half a fuck about explaining how he works, if not (vaguely) through the liners of the albums (98% in German language, which I don't understand) and the few essays quoted in his website (where else does he hope to find more about a "persona non grata", I wonder...). Sound is self-sufficient, the composer doesn't have that weight according to Herr Roland... So either this scientist learns German, or finds German-speaking friends and have them translate the stuff.

[Stephen]

Do I sense some anger? It seems there are some questions one is not allowed to ask (or maybe people one is not allowed to research?). I guess I will have to buy (more of) the CDs.

Still I am fascinated by "the composer doesn't have that weight" (but what is this paraphrased from?!) this is exactly the reason that I am interested in Kayn. If he is totally unwilling to discuss his work and ideas then he is only further embedding himself in his 'non grata' status.

[Dan Warburton]

Drop Massimo a line yourself, if you like. Google "Touching Extremes" and you'll find him.
I'm as much in the dark as you are, mate!

[user_484]

not that you'll find too much more information here:

http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelected ... adid=21450" onclick= "window.open(this.href);return false;

I'd be very curious myself to learn what's up with these pieces. while it's relatively clear to make out what he was doing on a technical level, especially once you collect enough of the works to see the chronological progression, 'cybernetic music' implies process music or a degree of automation and I'd love to know more. It's not impossible that some of the later works were largely improvised.

There are some really strong works on the 'Works for Orchestra and Ensemble 1954-72' 2 CD set from the 50's-70's that are already distinctive -- part of it is the recording quality, but he was already going for very abstract smears of sound across the register. The later works I imagine I can hear recycled recordings of the orchestral pieces, -- the pieces on 'Elektroakustische Projekte 1966-1975' have processing that's still very recognizable & audible, an arsenal of ringmod & filters resulting in sounds not unlike Stockhausen's 'Hymnen' or 'Telemusik', but structurally closer to the longer sound bath pieces by Ligeti or Xenakis, often scrapingly noisy & bruising. (some of it is a little bare bones but LP 3 of that box, 'Monades' / 'Eon' is particularly noisy and incredible)

shortly after that he abstracted further & came up with those endlessly rising ghostly walls where there isn't really much left to recognize are connect with anything, pure abstracted immersive sound, 'Tektra' is a masterpiece

it does baffle me there aren't any english interviews or translations or that he isn't more widely known. & I enjoyed spotting him in mod clothing in that Nuova Consonanza DVD on Die Schachtel two years ago

[jon abbey]

I like Tektra quite a bit also, but it's been OOP for a long time (except for a brief CD-R reprint), and what is it, five hours long? not too many people around with that kind of attention span these days.

[Stephen]

while it's relatively clear to make out what he was doing on a technical level,

Really? can you enlighten me

'cybernetic music' implies process music or a degree of automation and I'd love to know more.

Yes, this is why I am interested. From the sleeve-notes I've read he sets up a process or sequence of effects and then simply feeds in the source material and lets it happen, which actually reminded me more of Rainforest era Tudor and the Sonic Arts Union as a way of working than anything else. But I'm not entirely convinced. If it really is automatic music why is there such a strong aesthetic to it all?

[Stephen]

everything I know about Roland Kayn I learnt from listening to the sounds (which he himself stresses as the most important thing) and by reading the liners of his box sets. Unfortunately, the few English parts - and I still don't think that they would be enough for a work like the one you're embarking on - are printed on the booklets contained by the OOP boxes on the Colosseum label. There, RK talks a bit about the cybernetic principles that he applies to certain compositions, but always keeping the main focus on the pictorial aspects of sound (colours, shades, gradations, shapes, etc). Quoting from the cover of "Infra": "The term cybernetics, no matter how diversely interprted in recent years by scientists, can be generally described, particularly in the sphere of aesthetic information, by Herman Hesse's admirable formulation: "To be free, open-minded, to have no goal". That says it all, I believe..

It comes pretty obvious then that the floricultural aspect of my writeups was trying to respect that point of view, that's why I replied with irony to Dan. I was not angry and, top important, I didn't mean to offend you!

I do appreciate that after all these years there's finally some air moving around Roland's work. He is one of the true geniuses indeed.

Even when we were in touch more regularly there was no way of knowing much more, also because he does not speak English (he used to speak Italian a bit but not anymore). After a ruptured aorta a few years ago he's a little weaker - but still active: he has finished a piece named "Scanning" who I'm told would require 10 CDs to be released (!) - Talk about not having the patience of listening to "TEKTRA"...

[user_484]

thanks for forwarding Massimo's post. the explication of cybernetic music as "To be free, open-minded, to have no goal" does say a lot. yet the form is still there.

by 'clear' I only meant that with hindsight I can imagine which technology I would employ to reverse engineer some of those sounds (without making any claims to being able to match the original ofr course). there's a clear link to be seen when comparing the orchestral colors in 'Sequenzen (1957)' to any movement of 'Tektra (1982)' -- he's simply using technology to accentuate and exaggerate some of the same ideas and structures, and it certainly sounds to me as if he's starting with some acoustic & orchestral sources, then using (what could be) ringmod, filters, pitchshifting, echo & reverb, varispeed layering and livemixing with faders. Successive remixing to mass layers of layers probably being the key (though I repeat, I'm guessing). Not exclusively unique from anything others had access to, but his longform conclusion-free aesthetic was bolder and more removed from precedents

and I can definitely see why he'd want us to be guessing because this music isn't referential, at it's best you're not supposed to be thinking about any of the things I've just mentioned, it's pure abstract music. not surprised Tektra came out on Barooni, a label I discovered through their Asmus Tietchens releases -- I hear a similar approach in their work at times, though Tietchens comparatively works in miniatures.

I only have downloads of the vinyl boxes, those go for hundreds if you can find them. I was tempted at times just for the liners, but then there are almost no substantial liner notes to be found in any of the RRR 2CD sets, just 4 page booklets.

I'll buy that 10 CD set. As for Abbey's comment, the more I use iTunes the more liable I am not to use shuffle but to simply type in 'Kayn' or 'Beet Stretch' or 'Taj Mahal' and just let entire discographies play through, this is the kind of music you don't want to have to change CDs for every 80 minutes

[user_4602]

There was a copy of "Scanning" ripped from the radio broadcast floating around Soulseek at one point.

[Massimo Ricci]

Good news: around the end of May or shortly thereafter, the much desired booklets of the much desired Roland Kayn's rare boxes should be available online at http://www.kayn.nl" onclick= "window.open(this.href);return false; (as PDF files).

Huge thanks to Roland and Ilse Kayn for this, which I believe will be most welcome for all the interested parties, as this is probably the only way to get a modicum of technical info about Kayn's compositional processes.

[Stephen]

Great. Thanks a lot to all involved in making this happen. When they are uploaded I will be devote two hours of radio to playing the entirety of Makro, interspersed with readings from these notes.

If Kayn was as heavily influenced by information theory as is often claimed then perhaps diagrams like this are as close as anyone will ever get to grasping his techniques:

[Dan Warburton]

Good news: around the end of May or shortly thereafter, the much desired booklets of the much desired Roland Kayn's rare boxes should be available online at http://www.kayn.nl" onclick= "window.open(this.href);return false; (as PDF files).

Huge thanks to Roland and Ilse Kayn for this, which I believe will be most welcome for all the interested parties, as this is probably the only way to get a modicum of technical info about Kayn's compositional processes.

Whoa, Ricci on IHM! Lasciati ogni speranza voi che?ntrati..

[Massimo Ricci]

I will be conspicuously absent, don't worry Dan(te) - he he he...

Stephen, you'll be surprised at how awesome some of those scores look graphically.

[Massimo Ricci]

More good news: I was just told that a few copies of the Colosseum boxes (except "Simultan") are still available.

Those who are interested can send an email to:

roland (at) kayn (dot) nl

Needless to say, I strongly recommend to go to the source rather than enriching the eBay sharks (or - god forbid - listening to this stuff via MP3.....No MP3 can reproduce the real "Kayn effect")

[Stephen]

Further to the old thread I started, I have just been told by Massimo Ricci that there are now PDFs of the sleevenotes to Kayn's Colosseum boxsets available on his website here:

http://www.kayn.nl/cdandrecords.html

Some pretty eye-opening stuff, even at first glance. Not least the most ludicrous patch bay I have ever seen:



(i guess this should be merged onto the bottom of the old thread, but I can't reply to the archive at the mo.)

[mitch]

jeezus.

what is the most worthy of stuff that's in print? Is it available anywhere in the US, or would I have to venture to international-cyber-waters? the thread on the old board intrigued me.

-mm

[Stephen]

The in print cds are listed on the page linked above. I haven't got any of those but I do know some of them are available from Beta-Lactam Ring's online store. I would recommend the (now oop) boxset of tektra released on barooni, which you might find on ebay, gemm, or discogs (?). This is generally held to be his meisterwerk.

[Shivering Manatee]

What the hell....? He needs a patchbay like that to make a sound like a stuck synth through a phaser ???