Futbol 2020-21

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surfer
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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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At a volcanic press conference, Uefa bigwig Aleksander Ceferin could scarcely contain his fury as he attacked “the snakes” who had “spat in the face” of his organisation. While he had plenty of ire to go around, the brunt of it was reserved for United chief suit Edward Woodward and his former friend, the Juventus president. “[Andrea] Agnelli is the biggest disappointment of all,” he seethed. “I’ve never seen a person that would lie so many times, so persistently,” he added, saying he’d spoken to Agnelli on Saturday and was assured rumblings of a $uper League were just rumours. “It’s unbelievable.”
Amazingly, Ceferin is godfather to Agnelli's daughter. You cant make this shit up.

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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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surfer wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:11 am
PSG isnt included because their owner Nasser Al-Khelaifi is UEFA Exec Committee Chair and also I believe he owns beIN which paid a lot for the rights to UCL coverage.
Yes indeed; you can also add that Qatar is the next World Cup host and FIFA has threatened to ban Super League players, so he's in a quite complex situation, I suppose...

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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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surfer wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:11 am
Another will surely go to Bayern, despite their reluctance they will surely join. The last slot is very interesting to me, as I think its unlikely Dortmund will go against their principles. Will Rats be invited? They seem like an obvious choice because they got around the 50+1 rule and are owned by a global conglomerate, and besides all of German football already hate them.
rats are hardly a brand a global audience would want to watch. i'd say put the new york red bulls in the super league instead, that would make more sense (they could still silently be based out of leipzig, of course). actually i'd even wager that the whole bundesliga would stay out of this if the old guard were still in charge at bayern ... but, luck or coincidence, oliver kahn will replace rummenigge etc. shortly and it wouldn't surprise me if he were of a different mind. if they really stay out of it, then all the klopps, tüchels, zidanes, andsoforths should battle for the only free top management post in europe that comes with some cred now :-)

what's also funny is that the premier league is such a fine product these days (with e.g. ancelotti, bielsa coaching in the supposed alsorans, with constant challengers to the top 6, with so many storylines developing), that they could milk it for years to come to everyone's (fans and capitalists alike) satisfaction.

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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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Wombatz wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:20 pm

what's also funny is that the premier league is such a fine product these days (with e.g. ancelotti, bielsa coaching in the supposed alsorans, with constant challengers to the top 6, with so many storylines developing), that they could milk it for years to come to everyone's (fans and capitalists alike) satisfaction.
Agree X 100.

Actually just read that some internet sleuths have found a EuroSuperLeague.nl domain that is sitting idle (not such suffixes exist for portugal or any other country) so speculation is that Ajax may be the mystery 15th team. Bizarre.

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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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so i've been asking myself if and how the €$£ might actually work as a product. i guess the rough idea is what works for the nba? but the nba is heroball in a way football will never be (and i've no idea anyway who wants to see all those endless totally inconsequential main season games). actually i would have guessed that heavy competition (the gladiator aspect) might be part of the attraction even for the streaming audiences of u.s. asia, as well as the narrative that anyone (both teams and players) can achieve the impossible (= the american dream). the latter could still be kept up for individual players, but it all would have to move in the direction of heroball ... and of course there've been americans telling us how to improve the game for decades: we need more goals, so make them larger, smaller fields, fewer players, icehockey-style penalties, whatnot ... it would have to become a no-contact sport, because you couldn't afford star players sidelined for months because of fouls. then again, perversely, taking out serious competition would make football more pure ... is there actually that large a global audience of people who want to watch the game itself?

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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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Wombatz wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:18 am
so i've been asking myself if and how the €$£ might actually work as a product. i guess the rough idea is what works for the nba? but the nba is heroball in a way football will never be (and i've no idea anyway who wants to see all those endless totally inconsequential main season games). actually i would have guessed that heavy competition (the gladiator aspect) might be part of the attraction even for the streaming audiences of u.s. asia, as well as the narrative that anyone (both teams and players) can achieve the impossible (= the american dream). the latter could still be kept up for individual players, but it all would have to move in the direction of heroball ... and of course there've been americans telling us how to improve the game for decades: we need more goals, so make them larger, smaller fields, fewer players, icehockey-style penalties, whatnot ... it would have to become a no-contact sport, because you couldn't afford star players sidelined for months because of fouls. then again, perversely, taking out serious competition would make football more pure ... is there actually that large a global audience of people who want to watch the game itself?
Some interesting points here that I've been thinking about myself. The NFL is the model here, and its been well documented that since the advent of the EPL, owners looked across the Atlantic with envy at their American counterparts. Arsenal’s David Dein, Tottenham’s Irving Scholar and Manchester United’s Martn Edwards were all inspired by the NFL, with its cheerleaders, big TV deals, flashy production, and (Dein’s obsession) clean stadium toilets. Levy built his stadium specifically with the hope of attracting an NFL franchise (it has a retractable pitch and he has an agreement with the NFL for 1 NFL game a season there). Its not a coincidence its called the Euro Super League, definitely a overt reference to the Super Bowl. The NFL is less personality driven than the NBA, among other things because the players wear helmets, and also because there are larger rosters, and players have generally shorter careers. So in that sense, if the ESL is hoping to be star driven (Neymar v Kane part IV, this time its personal!) then yes the NBA is the model.

Is there a global audience for a "American-ized" football closed league ESL? I doubt it. I dont actually know many "casual" european soccer fans, EPL or otherwise. The only time I see casual fans (ahem, Walto, ahem) is when the World Cup rolls around, maybe the Euros. The main problem with UCL and to a lesser extent the EPL is the time difference. UCL airs 12PST and 3EST on weekdays. ESL is still going to be a weekday product, and it possible you could adjust the times to accomodate other markets but putting it at 7pm EST means it would be midnight in London. etc. EPL has taken off here because its a morning thing with very little sports competition on the calendar; you wake up on Sat-Sun, and at 6am-10am there is no other sports on but "soccer". It has its own niche on the tv calendar. For Asia its an even more extreme time difference that might be unbridgeable tbh

The second thing, is that yes there are probably aspects of soccer that Americans will "never" accept on principle (and Ted Lasso milked an entire sitcom out of those prejudices: draws! no playoffs! simulation! penalty kicks!), but what most American fans of European soccer like are the differences between the NFL/NBA/MLB not the similarities. Billy Beane tells a story of going to some EPL games and being enthralled by the passion, the singing, the flags, the tradition, and yes the skill and product on the field. He has subsequently said that he loves the soccer like atmosphere of A's baseball games (chanting, drums, flags). I know a TON of Liverpool fans, more than 12, and most of them started following them after Istanbul '05, but even later because of the "storied tradition" which is much different to American franchises. On the flip side, I know 3-4 Englishmen (2 I work with personally) who are die-hard followers of the NFL precisely because its different than English football they grew up with. People tend to find things that are different interesting and exciting.

Third, its tough to generalized about American sports fans but if there is ONE thing all Americans love its an underdog Cinderella story: whether its a #15 seed in the NCAA tournament, the "Miracle on Ice" in 1980, or the Amazing Mets or '69. Americans do see themselves as underdogs and love that narrative more than just about anything in sports. Over the past 15 years, the most ink that has been spilled and the most news coverage of the EPL on ESPN happened when Leicester City won in 2016. Nothing else has even come close. People ate that shit up. My dad was asking me what in up with LCFC and King Richard.

Its hard for me to gauge what casual football fans in Asian / Middle East "want" because I have no point of reference. I've been told that in Korea, Spurs matches are nationally televised, and that instead of the cockerel or TOT next to the score, they put up a picture on Son's smiling decapitated head. So maybe they would love Spurs v The Rest Of The Football Elite every weekday. Who knows?

Personally, over the last 24 hours I've very much enjoyed this blowing up in these owners faces. Seems unlikely the ESL will happen at this point. Its also been mildly amusing to see so much mocking scorn directed at Spurs and Levy for being included in any self-described group of Football Elite.
Last edited by surfer on Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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Outside of the Super Bowl, which most casual and non casual fans watch for the spectacle and commercials and not necessarily for the onfield product which is usually poor, the most popular sports event every year for casual sports fans is the NCAA basketball tournament. The reason is a) the format - single elimination knockout tournament with seeded teams guarantees high drama and upsets b) every year there are cinderella stories c) everyone fills out a bracket and so it is interactive.

If UCL wanted to capture a global or American audience, design a 32 team single elimination knockout tournament where teams are seeded. Ditch the group phase. Take two months in the middle of the season (Dec-Jan) and run it every weekend or twice a week. Dirty Dozen would hate it because Spurs (#3 seed) could easily lose to Frankfurt (#6 seed) and we cant have that. "We must protect our investments".

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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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What a finish from Haidara. aaaaand they immediately concede. :|

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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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What a miss by Kluivert, how did that go wide?

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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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i think the feeling is nagelsmann will go ... they're not gonna resolve their issues in the remaining games. coaches leaving unfinished projects is kind of a theme in the bundesliga right now.

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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/56823501
You were wondering how this product could work: in fact, it's a battle royale.

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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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Woodward out, Agnelli resigns. Is Levy next? Mein gott . . . . .

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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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Battle Royale, I said...
Image
May it be zoombombed

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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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Image

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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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Faster than Brexit!

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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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surfer wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:53 am
but what most American fans of European soccer like are the differences between the NFL/NBA/MLB not the similarities.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... on-us-fans

American fans love European football precisely because it isn’t like US sport
by Dave Caldwell (American Spurs supporter)

makes the same points I did above.

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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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surfer wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:09 pm
At a volcanic press conference, Uefa bigwig Aleksander Ceferin could scarcely contain his fury as he attacked “the snakes” who had “spat in the face” of his organisation. While he had plenty of ire to go around, the brunt of it was reserved for United chief suit Edward Woodward and his former friend, the Juventus president. “[Andrea] Agnelli is the biggest disappointment of all,” he seethed. “I’ve never seen a person that would lie so many times, so persistently,” he added, saying he’d spoken to Agnelli on Saturday and was assured rumblings of a $uper League were just rumours. “It’s unbelievable.”
Amazingly, Ceferin is godfather to Agnelli's daughter. You cant make this shit up.
how removed from popular culture do you have to be to come out in front of the entire world and be like "i have been swindled by this rich italian dude, i legit thought he was my friend :cry: !" i mean how can ceferin cross the street safely let alone lead the UEFA if he is that naive ?

i am essentially for a significant rehash of UEFA football, but the NBA system is the worst possible model. the national leagues are the most senseless competitions in existence - at least in the balkans / eastern europe - and we definitely need either some kind of a regional fusion or the division of teams into like 5 or 6 different euro tiers with something like the Super League being the first exclusive tier. i am aware that means theft and corruption on an even bigger scale (i mean imagine just a regional league where kokeza the pimp + mamic the slaveholder + gigi becali, a pimp and an outright mobster call the shots) but we have to at the very least try something like that because this is going pretty much nowhere even for the small clubs (or small markets).

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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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Lutz, given that you are in the unique position of being intimately familiar with all three of the RB coaching tree currently linked to Spurs coaching vacancy: Hasenhüttl, Nagelsmann, and Rangnick, and given that you are as familiar as I with what he would have to work with on the roster, whom do you prefer? Let's just assume that Nagelsmann is available and that Levy would sublimate his ego enough to give Rangnick the level of control he apparently demands. Can you give me a thumbnail sketch of each vis-a-vis Spurs current state?

Apparently Levy is meeting with all of them.

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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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i think we had all of this before but:

rangnick is in his early 60s now and willing to take on one final big project if (big if) he gets his way. he's amazing, pretty great manager despite the lack of major titles, who gave rats their identity on the pitch, but also super professional on the organisational side/handling money/scouting/whatnot ... and also he appears to be a really decent guy, i always thought it was magnificent how rats handled (the partial injustice of) being the most hated team in the bundesliga under him. but, while he's not an overbearing ego, he will want the power to make everything run as professionally as possible, and i cannot imagine spurs giving him that, and i'm sure the fans would initially (partially unfairly) hate him as a german technocrat, so it's useless to even think about it. still i'm a huge fan of the idea, he could build something sustainable and ambitious. (not that i'd care for that, but if i were wolves i'd give him my team ... former top 6 contender, not much left of that, he might give them a structure to return to at least that for good; of the big 6, i'd try to get him if i were arsenal.) so yeah i love the thought, but he won't give you a title next season with these players ...

neither will nagelsmann, i'm afraid. as i said before, while undoubtedly a good manager, he's totally unproven. last season's rats were maybe the best ever, but for that he perfected what rangnick had left him, making the team more variable. this season bundesliga is pretty weak, so they might collect most points in team history, but as we all know nagelsmann has not really found a way to compensate for the lack of werner (and he was involved in player acquisitions), and has not really found out how to balance the old style with whatever his own style might be. he should stay another year to show he can finish the project/sort out the attack/stop rats from chickening out in the big games/build a contender, which he hasn't done, even if they should win the cup. if bayern want him, he will go, but there's no indication he could sort out spurs so why would he take on an insoluble problem instead of the doable challenge he has on his hands? (also, if he went to spurs now i'd consider him a journeyman and would probably find it hard to root for that package ... get jesse marsch instead.)

hasenhüttl is difficult to judge. he's undoubtedly able, at rats he was workmanlike and likeable but set the goals too low when higher goals were actually reachable. while rangnick as sports director never seemed to crowd on his managers, it can't have been an easy position ... he did lack ambition, so that's not what spurs need? maybe he changed at southampton, but i think the ups and downs there are down to a limited team and a manager who's very good with the players but doesn't have a brilliant system.

so i got nothing new for you :roll: : rangnick would be brilliant but it won't happen, nagelsmann might work or he might not but really it would make sense neither for him nor spurs, and hasenhüttl is too low-key. let's get zidane instead, surely that would make harry stay?

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Re: Futbol 2020-21

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Thanks Lutz Yeah I was going mention Marsch but didnt know if you had any familiarity with Austrian League. Looks like Salzburg is top. I dont know anything about Marsch personally. I havent heard his name mentioned in connection with the Spurs job but he's an interesting candidate.