what's worth grabbing on karagarga?

[Piano Mouth]

Maybe happy hour is over...

[Dan Warburton]

[Hayao Yamaneko]

Apparently the author of this anti-piracy rant had something to do with the site being suspended - hopefully he doesn't continue to make trouble when/if they get it back up again.

That Judex rant. Might he have a point? How is Karagarga defensible. How can independent film makers, academics, musicians make a living when their work can be taken for free?
I'm completely complicit by the way and not in a position to shame anyone or take the moral high ground even if I wanted to (I really don't). I've downloaded loads of films from there. I've download music (not for a long while now actually, though stopping wasn't based on moral decision).
I just can't completely and comfortably dismiss the argument.

Not trying to be provocative, just feeling my way here. I don't have a completely fully formed opinion and I think it's something I need to work out and maybe some of you are in same position. Or maybe you have better worked out opinions than me, and in that case I'm interested.

[Piano Mouth]

I haven't read the anti-privacy rant, but I agree with you Hayao, because these are films, there's no vinyl option as there is with music. I feel like people still buy music, maybe not CDs so much anymore, but on iTunes and Records, where there isn't that option with films.

[jon abbey]

yeah, of course he has a point, although there are a lot of films and other things on there that I'm sure couldn't be obtained legally.

[Hayao Yamaneko]

There's no vinyl option as there is with music. I feel like people still buy music, maybe not CDs so much anymore, but on iTunes and Records, where there isn't that option with films.

Good point, there's a lack of distribution here (or seems to be) for independent film. There's no bandcamp for films... (cue 1000 startups). Mubi is good but different and much more limited.

yeah, of course he has a point, although there are a lot of films and other things on there that I'm sure couldn't be obtained legally.

Definitely true. I guess the question is around the other stuff. The Ozu films with commentary I grabbed for example. Most people involved probably dead now, but the rights -I don't know where that money would've gone. If the rights aren't supporting new work then I don't think there's an issue here. But rights to the criticism and work compiling commentary etc. is a different issue.
And even for the unavailable stuff I wonder if it prevents people being able to sustain careers in bringing this stuff to light - researching, restoring, giving critique etc. and thus we're going to lose expertise in those areas? Just a thought, no idea how that works in terms of real conditions.

I guess it's something that up until now, and somewhat self-servingly, I just haven't given much thought to.

[P. Wretch]

That Judex rant. Might he have a point? How is Karagarga defensible. How can independent film makers, academics, musicians make a living when their work can be taken for free?

He may have a point about work by contemporary independent filmmakers (and perhaps they should be able to request the removal of their work), but that's arguably not the main focus of KG. Even if much of the stuff on there is pirated from commercially released DVDs, the site represents a lot of work of curation and collation by people who really want to promote international film history. There's a small army of fansubbers, often working with old VHS bootlegs to bring forgotten titles to light.

As others have pointed out, the consumption model of film is changing - it's not as if streaming services like Netflix or Amazon Video, not to mention YouTube, are actually paying independent creators substantial royalties. That doesn't in itself justify torrenting, but the point is that the economy of physical media sales is in decline, with or without piracy. If KG moved to a paid subscription model like Spotify (which some have accused of being basically legal piracy), I think many of the members would go for it. Personally I still try to support independent cinemas, but 95% of the stuff on KG will never get screened in the few that remain.

And even for the unavailable stuff I wonder if it prevents people being able to sustain careers in bringing this stuff to light - researching, restoring, giving critique etc. and thus we're going to lose expertise in those areas? Just a thought, no idea how that works in terms of real conditions.

Unfortunately this is happening anyway. Film restoration and preservation have never been profitable activities - they rely on the financial support of institutions that believe in the importance of cultural heritage. In the UK, the BFI has had its budget squeezed; in the US, I think the Hollywood studios still pay for some of this stuff, but not enough, obviously. In most other countries, the situation is worse. As 35mm goes extinct as a projection format, the necessity of preserving and archiving the originals becomes more important. Some DVD labels (Criterion, Arrow) do pay for new restorations, and they should be supported where possible, but on balance I still believe the existence of KG is a net positive for film heritage.

[Hayao Yamaneko]

Thanks, that's really interesting and a lot I didn't know or hadn't thought about.

I guess really my main remaining reservation (as with you I guess) is re: living filmmakers. I think it maybe needs to go further than being able to request removal though. Especially given the invite system - if you're not already involved, how do you know your work is on there?. Maybe at min permission should be sought from director prior to uploading (though then of course this gets complicated. Takes just one person to write and record a song and that's rarely true of films)

[Piano Mouth]

Yeah, my guess is that if it doesn't go back online through the original creators, then maybe they can do a Spotify or Mubi type thing where they stream it for a monthly fee.

[Dan Warburton]

That Judex rant. Might he have a point? How is Karagarga defensible. How can independent film makers, academics, musicians make a living when their work can be taken for free?

Not quite unrelated, but I enjoyed reading this recently..
http://questioncopyright.org/bob_ostert ... ng_freedom

He may have a point about work by contemporary independent filmmakers (and perhaps they should be able to request the removal of their work)

A friend of mine - a well-respected independent filmmaker I invited to KG - found some of his work there, mistakenly attributed to another director. But he didn't ask for its removal, only that he be correctly credited. This idea that a nice fat cheque from heaven (or whatever royalty-collecting agency you choose to be with) falls promptly onto the doormat every month is absolute nonsense. It takes months, sometimes years for royalties, such as they are, to trickle through - and I mean trickle. Look at the number of people who have actually snatched a file and do the maths. Compare the royalty cheques received by artists to the salaries and bonus packages of top execs in Spotify et al.

Even if much of the stuff on there is pirated from commercially released DVDs, the site represents a lot of work of curation and collation by people who really want to promote international film history. There's a small army of fansubbers, often working with old VHS bootlegs to bring forgotten titles to light.

Exactly.

Film restoration and preservation have never been profitable activities - they rely on the financial support of institutions that believe in the importance of cultural heritage. [...] As 35mm goes extinct as a projection format, the necessity of preserving and archiving the originals becomes more important.

And as David Bordwell points out, digital archiving isn't without its attendant problems.
Anyway, sigh, it looks as if Judex's rant above is no longer there in Pastebin. If anyone else has access to the latest news on the KG situation (as you know, I don't go in for social networks), do please post a word here.
Fascinating issues. Was wondering, in the light of your comment above Jon, how incensed (or not?) you felt when you found that packet of Erstwhile albums on KG..

[jon abbey]

Was wondering, in the light of your comment above Jon, how incensed (or not?) you felt when you found that packet of Erstwhile albums on KG..

i have barely used KG and only kind of vaguely remember what you're talking about, but I think there were a bunch of the older records there? it's just the world we live in, it doesn't help to be upset or angry or happy or anything else, you just figure out how to keep things going or you disappear.

if I was going to be upset about that kind of thing, what.cd (the oink sequel) has a much more comprehensive collection of Ersts and often has the new ones before I even have the physical copies back from the printers. what I did there was I asked people if they placed an order with me based on hearing Ersts illegally via what.cd first, please tell me when they place an order, and I got a handful of orders that way, so it helped me feel better about the whole thing.

[Dan Warburton]

The reason I asked was that the bloke I mentioned in the post above snatched that package of old Ersts, and enjoyed what he heard so much he went out and bought half a dozen of them. Yay.

[Wombatz]

i think it doesn't help that mostly out there the general discussion is in terms of grande solutions to the system, or moral obligations to be fortified by law and bureaucracy, and that outside of any system the supposed alternative is a free for all. (one of the reasons everybody should hate kenneth goldsmith is his position that just because we have the means of taking everything, it means we must do so; though of course he's just a poster turd for that, and there's a whole school of media theory believing in technological development as true expression of an era to blame.) i'm not sure there's much to ponder at all: as a consumer i still have to not blatantly rip anybody off by my own shaky standards and measly budget, no matter if these standards are unlawful or if creators would hate me, no matter if the money goes to deserving artists or greedy corporations, no matter if it helps in the larger scheme of things or what everybody else does. of course in the end the fate of the arts will still be determined by faceless hordes of teenagers (same as it ever was) ...

[Hayao Yamaneko]

one of the reasons everybody should hate kenneth goldsmith is his position that just because we have the means of taking everything, it means we must do so; though of course he's just a poster turd for that.

Quoted for truth.

Dan & Piano - nice points too.
Thanks all, good to read things from people who've more connection to this than me and have given it more thought.

[mudd]

https://karagarga.in/

m

[P. Wretch]

Good that it's back up, although in the forums they're discouraging any further discussion of it on public sites - they seem to be taking a 'loose lips sink ships' line.

Also talk of a possible 12-month embargo on uploads of new releases, which might be a sensible idea.

[Dan Warburton]

Thanks to one of the mods, I solved my access to the forum problem - there was a stray # at the beginning of the last line of the hosts file - all is back to normal.. until Judex returns baying for blood

[Dan Warburton]

..which looks like it might be happening.. site seems to be down yet again, sigh

[jon abbey]

in the meantime, I've never seen an article about a pirate site of any kind (especially a positive one) in an actual publication before, including an 'Out 1' framegrab (!!!):

http://news.nationalpost.com/arts/weeke ... cure-films

[Dan Warburton]

The Antoine de Baecque biography of Eric Rohmer, now translated into English. If you like Rohmer, you can't afford to pass it up. If you don't, steer clear.