Newlondonwhat?

[jon abbey]

But London (like Berlin) has proved again and again the opposite of what you say to be true. The generation of musicians around the turn of the millennium (Wastell, Rhodri, Angharad, Matt Davis, Mattin, Seymour etc...) were heavily influenced by the generation before. As were the generation before that, and as will be this next generation coming through now.

and this is where we disagree. I agree that that's the case, but you (and Simon) think that's a generally beneficial thing, and I (for the most part, and keeping in mind that every individual case is different) don't.

[faster]

Yeah, Jon's right--when Otomo/Sachiko/Ichiraku, etc. first came around Seoul, the Seoul guys hadn't done much & hadn't gotten any attention at all. Hankil and Sangtae weren't even playing improvised music yet. The Japanese players played with Park Jechun, Miyeon, and some other older generation folks (in a concert & on the CD "Loose Community"), but also, though Japanese expat Sato Yukie, played with Choi Joonyong, Lee Hanjoo, Hong Chulki, me & some others ad hoc at Bulgasari. In his IMJ interview, Park Jechun said there wasn't a young generation of improvisors in Seoul (or electronic improvisors, can't remember), but Otomo's footnote namechecked the Bulgasari (and later Relay) guys, showing that he actually had a better grip on what was going on in Seoul than Park did. To his credit, Park came to a couple Relay shows later, I think only ones with visiting luminaries (Otomo, Sachiko, Axel Doerner) and only a few years ago, but hey.

As for London, it sounds great. Nice rise of activity and openness without a bunch of funding or any other outside causes. I hope Cafe Oto keeps drawing crowds and supporting the community. Venues can be a big part of the equation, a problem we constantly face in Seoul. I haven't heard much from this London scene, so I don't really know what I think of the music, but a living, vibrant music community is a good thing, from where I stand. I'm going to try to come over and see it for myself one day.

[Richard Pinnell]

As for London, it sounds great. Nice rise of activity and openness without a bunch of funding or any other outside causes. I hope Cafe Oto keeps drawing crowds and supporting the community. Venues can be a big part of the equation, a problem we constantly face in Seoul. I haven't heard much from this London scene, so I don't really know what I think of the music, but a living, vibrant music community is a good thing, from where I stand. I'm going to try to come over and see it for myself one day.

This is exactly the kind of response that I would expect from someone working positively towards this musical community on a local or global scale. Judge the music when you meet it, but encourage the positivity, the energy and the openness nevertheless. Thanks Joe.

[jon abbey]

This is exactly the kind of response that I would expect from someone working positively towards this musical community on a local or global scale.

so implicitly insulting, really lame. praise can be just as destructive in a macro sense as criticism (maybe even more), something we'll probably never agree on.

Judge the music when you meet it

that's all I've been doing.

[Richard Pinnell]

[so implicitly insulting, really lame.

Heh, I was merely happy about Joe's response Jon, read what you like into my words.

praise can be just as destructive in a macro sense as criticism (maybe even more), something we'll probably never agree on.

There is a massive difference between praise and positivity. It is perfectly possible to be critical of music in a positive manner, but that was not my point here. I said it was always good to encourage positivity, energy and openness irrespective of your opinions on the actual music itself. Surely you aren't disagreeing with this? Don't answer.

Judge the music when you meet it

that's all I've been doing.

Did someone say that you were not?

[mudd]

i'm having a really hard time reading tempers in this thread. i hope we're all calm and cool and stuff.

what i like about the UK scene right now is that i keep getting cds with 4 names of which i'm already fond of 3, and have never seen the fourth before. even better is that when i listen to them, the contributions of the 4th party don't tend to stick out like a sore thumb.

we've talked about musicians and we've mentioned venues. that's two out of three. is there an audience for this area of improv in london right now? i seem to remember a recent sidetracked thread suggesting there might not be.

m

[Richard Pinnell]

i'm having a really hard time reading tempers in this thread. i hope we're all calm and cool and stuff.

All is nice and cosy here

we've talked about musicians and we've mentioned venues. that's two out of three. is there an audience for this area of improv in london right now? i seem to remember a recent sidetracked thread suggesting there might not be.

yeah one of my points above was that audience sizes are probably about 100-150% up on average now against before Café Oto opened. There is also a much younger age group attending and a more healthy male/female balance. All of the recent Otomo shows sold out on advance tickets alone, and the Compost and Height gig a few weeks back must have come close. I'd say Oto holds about 200 people max.

[faster]

We may be talking about two different things (music and community?), but I don't think it's necessarily inappropriate or pernicious to judge the latter by the former, I'm just not in much of a position to do so yet, in this case. Jon, naturally, does that, and is pretty notoriously (and usefully) critical of recordings (he's made his whole life around it, after all).

Mark: I think earlier in this thread (or another recent one?) there were reports of big (as in 50+) audiences at Oto. Is that accurate, Richard? What's the draw for, say, a typical night with local players?

[mudd]

and is it different people coming to, say, the group that launched this splinter thread as opposed to musicians a generation or two older at the same space?

i see a lot of audience variation between jazz and improv shows, but we just don't have enough shows here to break down the improv audience any further.

m

[Richard Pinnell]

there were reports of big (as in 50+) audiences at Oto. Is that accurate, Richard? What's the draw for, say, a typical night with local players?

it really varies on the night of the week. Oto puts on gigs pretty much every night. On a snowy Tuesday in February I'm sure that numbers dip, but I'm only ever there once every so often as its a long trip for me to get into London. The Otomo gigs sold out, probably 200 people a night, and I've seen over 100 people in there on quite a few occasions in the last year. I'm told that when Henry Flynt recently played people were pressed up against the window.

and is it different people coming to, say, the group that launched this splinter thread as opposed to musicians a generation or two older at the same space?

Well increasingly these different sets of musicians are appearing on the same bills, but I think in general there is still some definite segregation, as people continue to have differing tastes. Things definitely seem to be changing/improving though. A good taster will be the forthcoming Freedom of the City festival. I haven't attended this fest in four years, but I will be this time. It'll be interesting to see how many others do.

[faster]

On a snowy Tuesday in February I'm sure that numbers dip, but I'm only ever there once every so often as its a long trip for me to get into London. The Otomo gigs sold out, probably 200 people a night, and I've seen over 100 people in there on quite a few occasions in the last year. I'm told that when Henry Flynt recently played people were pressed up against the window.

Sure, I'm more curious about the less-exceptional shows--Otomo draws a crowd; snow keeps people away. Am I right in assuming most shows are just the local folks in varying combinations? If not, I'm curious what the audience looks like on those nights.

[P. Wretch]

All of the recent Otomo shows sold out on advance tickets alone, and the Compost and Height gig a few weeks back must have come close. I'd say Oto holds about 200 people max.

Ironically, for the few events I've attended there, which were more towards the 'pop' end of things (e.g. the American singer Meg Baird - I've drifted back away from improv), the audiences were mostly much smaller, probably c. 30, and on one occasion barely 10, which was during the height of summer. 200 sounds like an extremely uncomfortable fit. Although there are things one can object to about this venue (haphazard seating, erratic start times, relatively inconvenient location for those not based in East London), it's certainly an improvement over the 'glum pub room' that continues to haunt small-scale live music of all genres in this country.

[jon abbey]

haven't those Japanese musicians always drawn reasonably big crowds there? I know when I saw the Cosmos/Astro Twin show at the Spitz in 2002, there were probably close to 200 people there, and that was without Otomo (clearly the biggest draw of the bunch).

[Dan Warburton]

I thought this thread was about Café Oto, not Otomo. Is playing with Otomo some sort of royal seal of approval, like the "By Appointment to HRH" on pots of marmalade?

[faster]

I thought this thread was about Café Oto, not Otomo. Is playing with Otomo some sort of royal seal of approval, like the "By Appointment to HRH" on pots of marmalade?

Have you read the thread? Nobody's actually talking about him at all. Straw man. You'll notice Otomo came up for two reasons: as an example of a visiting musician who can pick who he plays with in a side discussion about who gets gigs in towns with multiple generations of improvisors and towns without, and as an example ofa musician ina big-audience show at Café Oto.

And actually, this thread isn't really about Café Oto, either, it's about the idea that there may be something new happening in London (something in which Café Oto plays a role).

[hatta]

...it's about the idea that there may be something new happening in London...

Which once again there seems to be no evidence for beyond hype from the usual suspects.

[Dan Warburton]

I thought this thread was about Café Oto, not Otomo. Is playing with Otomo some sort of royal seal of approval, like the "By Appointment to HRH" on pots of marmalade?

Have you read the thread?

Yes I have and there's no need to be so patronising, thank you very much.

[faster]

I wasn't trying to be patronizing.

[JrF]

and it's all well and fine to not care about recordings, but then you can't expect the rest of the world to care about what you're doing,

I can't agree with that Jon. There's a whole load of music going on around the world that hasn't been recorded or isn't even about making recordings but that I care about - at least I care that it's happening.

In my earlier post on this thread I tried (& no doubt failed) to offer some critism, all be it from a positive stance, of the knocking that I felt was too obvious and predictable. Me & Jon don't get on on here so it is probably always going to be a tricky area if comments are about each others posts (though I find that rather predicatble too). The thing is I didn;t see any critical or detailed comment on the recordings or this rather vaguely defined 'scene' - just a few people saying there was nothing of interest going on - despite the fact that there very clearly is a great deal of energetic creative activity, a growth in audience figures (meaning for one thing that players get to play to people other than the same 20 or 30 faces all the time) & a lot of music that is asking questions of itself & really importantly people (audience & players) are enjoying this time, this new enthusiasm for other musics. The benefit of what is going on in the UK right now stretches way beyond London or indeed beyond the improvising players mentioned in this thread.

I for one get a bit over heated when I see the same old sour faced knocking going on - it's the same thing that contributed to the decline of various venues / pockets of interesting music before the whole 'oto' related surge & it's also what alienates audiences.

Of course everyone is entitled to thier opinion & clearly some people aren't interested but lets not knock something so hard that is having very positive results so far & which means that young players are able to find thier feet in a supportive but creatively rigourous environment & that more established players get to forge new and exciting links with those newer faces. If anyones perception is that this 'scene' is represented by the few recordings that have appeared so far then I would seriously question said persons open mindedness & genuine interest in creative music.

oh & as with anything, there are always going to be some people involved who have less than genuine motives: some are lazy, some are motivated by money (as with lots of artists creating sound art here in the UK at the moment who soak up funding without creating interesting work - largely because curators here often have no interest in or knowledge of creative music & therefore often award funding based on idea they have never come across before but that are old hat in reality) & some try to exploit things for thier own ends without caring how thier actions will affect things. Oto is a good example here: the new audiences the buzz around this venue is bringing in have so far benefited to a booking policy based on Hamish & Keiko's openess & knack for weeding out the opportunists who's interest is in milking the audience & therefore destroying the trust that exists between audience & venue. I know myself that people often go to Oto just to see what's happening & therefore encounter music they've never heard before. Exposure to different music is such an important thing for us all & the more of that the better.

As Richard pointed out, there isn't any funding really for all this activity around London but the buzz that activity is creating does help in discussions with funders like the Arts Council when attempting to get minimal funding for events outside the capital. The whole funding situation here in the UK is a massive topic but there is a really big issue with an imbalance between the funding of the visual arts, what they define as music & music such as that generally discussed on ihm.

[patrick farmer]

I've been trying not to reply to this thread, it's inevitable that when talking about something that is quite close to your heart you will become somewhat defensive if there are those within this topic who obviously don't share your views, even harder when they've never even been to a show in cafe oto.

but then i thought, why should i care what jon abbey thinks (apologies for singling you out jon, it's just yours is the only name i know out of people who haven't been to oto, etc etc). I obviously don't share your views, but i think this music, a music you have called 'our music', means more to you than it does to me, in some ways. which is fine.

i really dont understand where all this comes from, and as richard says, most of the people mentioned in this thread dont even live in london, myself for one. cafe oto is simply a lovely place to play and be with lovely people. and as simon stated earlier, i dont think there have been many recordings made in the venue itself because the architecture, and the omnipresent sirens of east london, dont lend themselves towards a clear and unflattened acoustic representation.

again, i seem to have drifted from my point, but to be honest, im not even sure what my point is, but then i feel thats osmewhat of a theme for this thread anyway - hatta - Its amusing to me as I was bicycling into work today I was just thinking that the European wing of current improv trends, including the UK, seems to have really dead ended lately mostly. hatta - Which once again there seems to be no evidence for beyond hype from the usual suspects. i mean, truly, what good does that do?

it just seems to me to be one big sausage party about numbers, symbiosis and why one generation should or should'nt mingle with another generation (which i personally think is a little bit silly, i love playing with jez, rhodri, angharad, matt, etc etc etc, and then to have someone say that they think having one generation being influenced by another is a bad idea, well, how would you want it to work? sorry if i misunderstood, but then thats why im posting, to try and understand. i would genuinely appreciate some level headed responses to some of my questions.

and i have to say that there is little to no funding for this music in england, a handful of people get a very small amount of money, but in comparative terms, they get nothing for the amount of work they put in. and as for cafe oto, hamish and keiko work incredibly hard to keep the place afloat, they're there pretty much every night, and a lot of afternoons also. i couldnt do what they do.