the ethics of file-sharing in experimental music

[mudd]

also the DIY model only accounts for local or by-mail collaboration. bringing musicians together takes resources, and the major contributor of those resources has always been the labels.

say what you will about recording and music technology, we're still a long way from putting too people in the same room.

m

[normalioifyp]

also the DIY model only accounts for local or by-mail collaboration. bringing musicians together takes resources, and the major contributor of those resources has always been the labels.

say what you will about recording and music technology, we're still a long way from putting too people in the same room.

m

Since when do you need labels to collaborate? Everyone I collaborate with, I've met online or in person. No labels introduced me to them.

maybe you can read the whole thread sometime when you manage to summon up the attention span to do so, since some of us have put a lot of effort into earlier posts already.

and yes, music will survive no matter what. if all guitars were destroyed tomorrow never to be replaced, music would also survive, but that wouldn't make it a positive development.

Last time I tried to read one of these long page posts I had to sit through like 10 pages of people in a pissing contest over the definition of "European Free Improvisation". Complete waste of my time. Forgive me if I've skimmed.

I think most here would agree. big labels disappearing would be a positive development. As for small labels, I just doubt whether they have any use at all. I doubt they are bad for music. But how much good do they do? Nowadays, when most musicians record and promote themselves, and fans have new ways to discover music online, the benefits small labels provide is .... small. If they disappear, it's no loss. But regardless, if you really believe that passionately in whatever label you run, you'll keep on running it anyway. So why are so many on this thread outraged at piracy?

[jon abbey]

Since when do you need labels to collaborate? Everyone I collaborate with, I've met online or in person. No labels introduced me to them.

surprisingly, you're not the only musician in the world.

I think most here would agree. big labels disappearing would be a positive development. ?

yes, but nothing to do with the topic, or could you not even be bothered to read the title of the thread?

So why are so many on this thread outraged at piracy?

you admittedly didn't read the thread, so stop characterizing what other people have said in it.

it's one thing to waltz in and make blanket prononcements, but if you are going to continue and attempt to engage in a dialogue, read the thread and answer what people have already said (via quote), not misguided overarching guesses at what you think might be a prevailing opinion.

[simon reynell]

normalioifyp, as I said before, I basically agree that what you call ‘the digital gift economy’ is a reality that musicians and labels alike will have to find ways of adapting to. And it brings some benefits for the consumer and certain types of musicians. But your perspective seems to ignore the potential negatives that it also brings for the production of other kinds of experimental music. As mudd says, “the DIY model only accounts for local or by-mail collaboration. bringing musicians together takes resources, and the major contributor of those resources has always been the labels.”
This weekend I’m spending two days recording a group of 5 musicians who are coming together from all corners of the UK. Some of them are completely broke (as a lot of experimental musicians are) so ‘the label’ is paying their travel expenses. We also need a venue that has a good piano and is suitable for recording quiet music, and such things don’t come cheap. The digital gift economy doesn’t seem to stretch as far as petrol, train tickets or room hire, and altogether the weekend will cost hundreds of pounds. If at the end of it a CD is produced, and some people then pay for it, there’s a chance that at least some of the expenses will be recouped. But if the music enters the digital gift economy without consumers paying anything, then clearly ‘the label’ will make a heavy loss, which is something that I can’t afford to do repeatedly. So the danger of unauthorised downloading / the digital gift economy is that it makes certain kinds of experimental music considerably more difficult to realise. By not bringing in money at the consumer end, it makes things even more constrained financially and so closes off possibilities at the production end.
Of course other kinds of musical activity can and will continue, but the point of starting this thread was that I believe that we (musicians, labels and consumers) need to discuss the potential negatives because if we don’t think strategically, creatively and – yes – radically about how to change and adapt, then the sector as a whole will be impoverished. I don't feel that you're addressing this side of things at all.

[Wombatz]

I hate that word “gift economy.” It’s obviously nonsense, but more than that it seems like making a religion/grand theory out of the fact of file-sharing, just so that you don’t have to act responsibly any more. And still you will find ways to give the money you’ve saved on art to the industry.

[Damon_Smith]

So the danger of unauthorised downloading

Simon! you know I love your work, but: you need authorized downloading of some kind! Even just the full quality tracks through a file send site like Jon does. Jon is reporting that he is getting support for his production and I think that has a lot to do with it.
As a listener, I used to be more into digital only for new releases, but now I am back to wanting cds more. The last cd I played on, Scowl Nate/Wooley/Scott R. Looney/Weasel Walter seems to have recouped costs already. There is hope yet!

[normalioifyp]

you admittedly didn't read the thread, so stop characterizing what other people have said in it.

it's one thing to waltz in and make blanket prononcements, but if you are going to continue and attempt to engage in a dialogue, read the thread and answer what people have already said (via quote), not misguided overarching guesses at what you think might be a prevailing opinion.

I am responding to concerns I've read here, like:

yeah, you are totally wrong. illegal downloading is hurting the labels big time, no matter how small the numbers may seem to you.

and

I know this is intentionally simplistic, but to me the role of the label (ideally) is a crucial one, and I've thought that since long before I started Erst, back when I was just one of the bigger music consumers around. if all labels disappeared, I personally would probably be far less interested in music, as surprisingly few musicians seem capable of making great records on their own.

Clearly there is talk of what piracy means not only for musicians, but for labels, and what role labels have in a digital music market. I say the labels have a diminishing role, and we're better off without them.

I hate that word “gift economy.” It’s obviously nonsense, but more than that it seems like making a religion/grand theory out of the fact of file-sharing, just so that you don’t have to act responsibly any more. And still you will find ways to give the money you’ve saved on art to the industry.

Gift economy isn't nonsense. It's a sociological concept with lots of research behind it. It's theorized that the first human societies ran as gift economies, before the invention of money. A gift economy is a society where you give goods and services to others without an explicit agreement of payment. People give freely, with the understanding that their generosity will inspire others to do the same, and their positive contributions will somehow get back to them. It's not magic. Just one of the many ways humans organize themselves.

I don't understand your last sentence. Can you clarify what you mean by "the industry?"

This weekend I’m spending two days recording a group of 5 musicians who are coming together from all corners of the UK. Some of them are completely broke (as a lot of experimental musicians are) so ‘the label’ is paying their travel expenses. We also need a venue that has a good piano and is suitable for recording quiet music, and such things don’t come cheap. The digital gift economy doesn’t seem to stretch as far as petrol, train tickets or room hire, and altogether the weekend will cost hundreds of pounds. If at the end of it a CD is produced, and some people then pay for it, there’s a chance that at least some of the expenses will be recouped. But if the music enters the digital gift economy without consumers paying anything, then clearly ‘the label’ will make a heavy loss, which is something that I can’t afford to do repeatedly. So the danger of unauthorised downloading / the digital gift economy is that it makes certain kinds of experimental music considerably more difficult to realise. By not bringing in money at the consumer end, it makes things even more constrained financially and so closes off possibilities at the production end.
Of course other kinds of musical activity can and will continue, but the point of starting this thread was that I believe that we (musicians, labels and consumers) need to discuss the potential negatives because if we don’t think strategically, creatively and – yes – radically about how to change and adapt, then the sector as a whole will be impoverished. I don't feel that you're addressing this side of things at all.

Ok, thanks for clarifying. I didn't quite understand what mudd was saying, because in my experience, collaboration has never involved much travel. The concept of a label paying for me to travel somewhere is a bit foreign to me, since the small labels I've worked with never had the money to send someone anywhere, and the big labels expect artists to fund their own tours and travel expenses.

My arguments so far have presumed that music is cheap to make, and anyone with some free time and some rainy day money can make an album. For solo releases, that's absolutely true. My entire recording set up costs maybe 600 dollars, and I get very clean results that I'm happy with.

I never considered projects like yours, where you need to fly people over to record. So the question is, without a label, how would you pay for people to travel so far?

Just because labels don't exist doesn't mean that artists wouldn't be making money. Artists are still making money, even without a label. Infact, because they don't have a label, all sales of their music is profit. No middleman to take a cut. So if 5 artists really wanted to make this happen, they'd have a revenue stream. They'd still be making music from their live performances, and despite piracy, they can still make money selling digital downloads (itunes still makes money despite the widespread availability of pirated music).

Of course, not all artists will make enough money from their music to fund paid trips. For little guys like me, there's always crowd funding. If you have a big enough fanbase, they will gladly pledge money for you to continue making the music they love. Marillion funded a whole US tour this way, and has started crowd funding their albums. But I know of far smaller bands that have successfully used crowd funding to support cool musical projects. Just check out kickstarter for projects raising money this way: http://www.kickstarter.com/

I'm not saying making music doesn't cost money. It's just way cheaper now, thanks to computers. And thanks to advances in home recording, digital distribution, etc, labels aren't needed to raise that money anymore.

[jon abbey]

yeah, you're not telling us anything we don't know, but what you still seem to be missing is that entirely apart from money, labels serve a huge purpose and a purpose that I don't think can be replaced without music as I know it (as a listener) being vastly diminished.

having a record on Mego or Erstwhile or Kranky or wherever immediately brings the attention of a new audience, some of whom may have been familiar with a musician's work before, but many of whom aren't. Simon's release of the Anett Nemeth disc earlier this year is a perfect example, if she'd self-released that, it's probable that not many people would have checked it out (although the title was good), but because it was on a label with an established fan base, it got checked out and widely discussed.

also, every label works differently, but beyond curatorial skills, you're entirely ignoring the potential role of a producer. yes, there are tons of bad producers in the world, but the good ones can put together a good record where the musicians sometimes don't think there is a record in the material, or make a great record out of a good record, or any number of other scenarios I've encountered en route to producing 70+ releases in the last decade. I'm pretty sure I've addressed this in more detail earlier in the thread.

[mudd]

the argument that labels are less necessary than they were 10, 50, however many years ago is quite valid. but there remains a considerable role for the recording-studio equivalent of a festival organizer - tracking down the right musicians and combinations, making sure they are recorded well, provide feedback and editorial input, overseeing the logistics of design and distribution. the artists can take care of these things, certainly. they can also book their own tours instead of participating in festivals or larger-scale events. but that means they have to develop a lot of skills that have nothing to do with their music. it would certainly exclude musicians who fail to master those skills from popular awareness they might deserve.

and yes, collaborations go well beyond the range of a tank of gasoline. another side-effect of the portability of music today is that musical partnerships may spring up at quite enormous distances.

m

[normalioifyp]

having a record on Mego or Erstwhile or Kranky or wherever immediately brings the attention of a new audience, some of whom may have been familiar with a musician's work before, but many of whom aren't. Simon's release of the Anett Nemeth disc earlier this year is a perfect example, if she'd self-released that, it's probable that not many people would have checked it out (although the title was good), but because it was on a label with an established fan base, it got checked out and widely discussed.

This is one function of labels that I recognize. So far, they are one of the best ways for musicians to cross-promote. Marketing is hard when you're just one person, but musicians together in a label can share resources to best promote themselves. And I'm all about musicians sharing resources.

I don't just believe this has to continue under the label system. Musicians must organize themselves into groups where they can share resources, knowledge, and help promote each other. Such a group wouldn't be a label (since labels are in the business of recording and selling music), but they would fill in the gaps where promotion is concerned. More like a support network. I look to webcomics as a model. The Dayfree Press (http://www.dayfreepress.com/) is a network formed by webcomic authors to cross promote their comics and share resources. But it resembles an old fashioned web-ring more than it does a comic publisher.

also, every label works differently, but beyond curatorial skills, you're entirely ignoring the potential role of a producer. yes, there are tons of bad producers in the world, but the good ones can put together a good record where the musicians sometimes don't think there is a record in the material, or make a great record out of a good record, or any number of other scenarios I've encountered en route to producing 70+ releases in the last decade. I'm pretty sure I've addressed this in more detail earlier in the thread

You have. I've read them. I just don't agree with them. Younger musicians especially know how to record music out of necessity, and enjoy doing so. Recording software makes the process so much simpler than it used to be. Now you don't need years of training to make great records. You just need vision, and I admit, that's not easy to find. There's more to making an album than recording. There's figuring out the track order, shaping the recording's aesthetics with studio treatments, etc. But that comes with practice. When people put time and love into a solo release, the production comes out just fine.

But yes, some people can and should specialize in producing. This also doesn't need to take place in the context of a label. For instance, I've produced albums by others - albums I haven't been a part of outside of recording the tracks, treating them, cutting them up, mastering, etc. I did this outside of a label, for no money, because it was fun. I consider producing another aspect of my music, and by producing other people's records, I'm being a part of that record too.

the argument that labels are less necessary than they were 10, 50, however many years ago is quite valid. but there remains a considerable role for the recording-studio equivalent of a festival organizer - tracking down the right musicians and combinations, making sure they are recorded well, provide feedback and editorial input, overseeing the logistics of design and distribution. the artists can take care of these things, certainly. they can also book their own tours instead of participating in festivals or larger-scale events. but that means they have to develop a lot of skills that have nothing to do with their music. it would certainly exclude musicians who fail to master those skills from popular awareness they might deserve.

and yes, collaborations go well beyond the range of a tank of gasoline. another side-effect of the portability of music today is that musical partnerships may spring up at quite enormous distances.

m

You're right. Without labels, artists are forced to practice some basic skills in recording and promoting themselves. But one of the reasons labels are disappearing is because today, more and more artists prefer to record and promote themselves than sign with a label. They like the personal control they have over every aspect of the music, and now, finally, technology makes it practical to do so.

[edit: now that I think of it, labels may not be disappearing. There seems to be a lot of little tiny ones now. But I don't think many of them are much more than basement operations. What I mean to say is, labels are shrinking, not disappearing. Their role will only continue to get smaller, and when that happens, more and more artists will chose to go it alone.]

[jon abbey]

I guess it comes down to if you think labels add value or not. to me, the best labels most certainly do. I guess I don't get what your big issue is with them and why you are so keen to see them disappear. do you feel the same about record stores? book stores? publishing companies for books? I personally think that the internet has made record stores almost entirely irrelevant for (and here's the key) MY SPECIFIC NEEDS AS A CONSUMER, but I recognize that many people feel differently, so I don't go around proselytizing for their abolition.

When people put time and love into a solo release, the production comes out just fine.

sometimes yes, sometimes no. I think one of the issues here might be that you and I are talking about largely different subsectors of experimental music. can you give me a list of five of your favorite releases of the last few years, so I have a better idea where you're coming from?

But yes, some people can and should specialize in producing. This also doesn't need to take place in the context of a label. For instance, I've produced albums by others - albums I haven't been a part of outside of recording the tracks, treating them, cutting them up, mastering, etc. I did this outside of a label, for no money, because it was fun.

this brings to mind a conversation I had a couple weeks ago with a musician who runs a pretty well-known experimental label, who deeply envied my being a non-musician running a label, as it creates far fewer conflicts of interest. as for your specific case, again without knowing specifics about what record you're talking about, it's hard to comment much. anyone can master or produce or edit, very few are really good at it (as with pretty much everything in this world).

But one of the reasons labels are disappearing is because today, more and more artists prefer to record and promote themselves than sign with a label. They like the personal control they have over every aspect of the music, and now, finally, technology makes it practical to do so.

well, most of them that I know don't like the selling part of it after the discs are made, plus touting your own work is always tricky. people take it much more seriously generally if someone else is touting it for you.

also, this thread has pretty much nothing to do with people "signing with a label", again you're confusing the majors with the experimental world (with exceptions like Fennesz on the popular end, of course, but even he did a handful of records with me while under contract elsewhere).

now that I think of it, labels may not be disappearing. There seems to be a lot of little tiny ones now. But I don't think many of them are much more than basement operations. What I mean to say is, labels are shrinking, not disappearing. Their role will only continue to get smaller, and when that happens, more and more artists will chose to go it alone.

and the more that comes to pass, the worse off music will be overall, from my perspective. we've already seen an impact in recent years from all of the labels disappearing, virtually no great collaborative improv records have been made in recent times (IMO obviously). this isn't entirely because so many great labels have disappeared, but it's not unconnected either.

[normalioifyp]

I guess it comes down to if you think labels add value or not. to me, the best labels most certainly do. I guess I don't get what your big issue is with them and why you are so keen to see them disappear. do you feel the same about record stores? book stores? publishing companies for books? I personally think that the internet has made record stores almost entirely irrelevant for (and here's the key) MY SPECIFIC NEEDS AS A CONSUMER, but I recognize that many people feel differently, so I don't go around proselytizing for their abolition.

I'm not advocating for their abolition. I recognize their abolition is an inevitability, and advocate embracing the new possibilities in the wake of digital, rather than weeping over lost things from the past, or blaming piracy. It's time we organize for the digital future now than get left behind.

Book publishers and book stores, like record labels, are obsolete, and will no doubt die off. I say that's a great thing too, because when the book publishers die, it will leave a void where book writers can innovate with new business models. And so far, digital distribution has made it easier for lesser known novelists to publish their own books.

When people put time and love into a solo release, the production comes out just fine.

sometimes yes, sometimes no. I think one of the issues here might be that you and I are talking about largely different subsectors of experimental music. can you give me a list of five of your favorite releases of the last few years, so I have a better idea where you're coming from?

I have heard the term "experimental" applied to all kinds of music, some I liked and some I didn't. So I can't think of any examples. But if you just want an example of what one person can do in a home studio without a label, check out this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 04o#t=252s

Not noise or experimental. Just a metal song / christmas carol. But still, sounds just as good as any professionally recorded metal album I've ever heard. I'm sure a determined audiophile/cynic could find something wrong with it.

I'm not really a metal guy though. Never understood it. Perhaps too macho for a milksop like myself.

But yes, some people can and should specialize in producing. This also doesn't need to take place in the context of a label. For instance, I've produced albums by others - albums I haven't been a part of outside of recording the tracks, treating them, cutting them up, mastering, etc. I did this outside of a label, for no money, because it was fun.

this brings to mind a conversation I had a couple weeks ago with a musician who runs a pretty well-known experimental label, who deeply envied my being a non-musician running a label, as it creates far fewer conflicts of interest. as for your specific case, again without knowing specifics about what record you're talking about, it's hard to comment much. anyone can master or produce or edit, very few are really good at it (as with pretty much everything in this world).

It's a hip hop album I helped produce, and it probably won't be out for a while. But if you'd like a taste of my studio work, check out: http://soundcloud.com/normal_if/cut-and-come-again

It's one of my favorites. Very little effects, lots of natural reverb from the room I recorded in, and this ear piercing hiss at the end (I like my recordings to hurt people). I feel my choice to record this way was appropriate for the song.

Admittedly it sounds a little rough, but I like it that way, and I hope my recordings will continue to improve as I get more practice producing. I understand if you don't like it. I never liked conventional production techniques.

Would love some feedback. It could help me improve.

But one of the reasons labels are disappearing is because today, more and more artists prefer to record and promote themselves than sign with a label. They like the personal control they have over every aspect of the music, and now, finally, technology makes it practical to do so.

well, most of them that I know don't like the selling part of it after the discs are made, plus touting your own work is always tricky. people take it much more seriously generally if someone else is touting it for you.

People take it more seriously now, since we are still stuck in the old mindset of having labels curate stuff for us, but as they become less important, people won't dismiss an album just because it's self released.

also, this thread has pretty much nothing to do with people "signing with a label", again you're confusing the majors with the experimental world (with exceptions like Fennesz on the popular end, of course, but even he did a handful of records with me while under contract elsewhere).
.

That was my poor choice of words. I didn't mean you are stuck in a contract when you sign with a small experimental label. Should have said "work with a label" instead.

[RFKorp]

People take it more seriously now, since we are still stuck in the old mindset of having labels curate stuff for us, but as they become less important, people won't dismiss an album just because it's self released.

the promotion point is sticky. it's not about whether people "dismiss" self-releases but whether they are able to discover that the release even exists at all.

[normalioifyp]

People take it more seriously now, since we are still stuck in the old mindset of having labels curate stuff for us, but as they become less important, people won't dismiss an album just because it's self released.

the promotion point is sticky. it's not about whether people "dismiss" self-releases but whether they are able to discover that the release even exists at all.

See my earlier point about cross promotion:

This is one function of labels that I recognize. So far, they are one of the best ways for musicians to cross-promote. Marketing is hard when you're just one person, but musicians together in a label can share resources to best promote themselves. And I'm all about musicians sharing resources.

I don't just believe this has to continue under the label system. Musicians must organize themselves into groups where they can share resources, knowledge, and help promote each other. Such a group wouldn't be a label (since labels are in the business of recording and selling music), but they would fill in the gaps where promotion is concerned. More like a support network. I look to webcomics as a model. The Dayfree Press (http://www.dayfreepress.com/) is a network formed by webcomic authors to cross promote their comics and share resources. But it resembles an old fashioned web-ring more than it does a comic publisher.

[leroysghost]

People take it more seriously now, since we are still stuck in the old mindset of having labels curate stuff for us, but as they become less important, people won't dismiss an album just because it's self released.

the promotion point is sticky. it's not about whether people "dismiss" self-releases but whether they are able to discover that the release even exists at all.

That's where yelling about yourself on forums comes in...

I'm of the opposite line of thinking. Down with labels because the less people that know who you are the better because you probably don't warrant the attention anyway, only record things with your phone, manufacture on shit cd-r and for fucks sake keep that box of disks at the bottom of your closet.

[faster]

Book publishers and book stores, like record labels, are obsolete, and will no doubt die off. I say that's a great thing too, because when the book publishers die, it will leave a void where book writers can innovate with new business models.

Yes! And as soon as we finish off the rainforests, there will be so many opportunities for desert species to thrive. Think about the great opportunities offered to pigeons, rats, and cockroaches when we finally pave this whole dirty rock!

[normalioifyp]

Book publishers and book stores, like record labels, are obsolete, and will no doubt die off. I say that's a great thing too, because when the book publishers die, it will leave a void where book writers can innovate with new business models.

Yes! And as soon as we finish off the rainforests, there will be so many opportunities for desert species to thrive. Think about the great opportunities offered to pigeons, rats, and cockroaches when we finally pave this whole dirty rock!

Music and literature will survive without labels and publishers. But life may not survive if we finish off the rain forests. That's where your analogy breaks down.

[rainey]

Obviously this discussion has reached a level of ridiculousness.

I'm personally more interested in how changes in recording technology and distribution affect the idea of an "album", "song", or, more generally "release". I like this especially in the realm of improvisation, which, I believe, benefits from sharing imperfect but inspired performances and which has never sat too well in the realm of "great albums". Sometimes, skirting below the radar with non-standard, non-label releases prevents the rampant judgement and cataloging that forums like these encourage, allowing the music (and the discourse that surrounds it) to develop in a different way.

This is not an argument against labels or albums but really more of a positive vote for the co-existence of "traditional" (as in about 70 years of technologically-determined practices) releases and non-traditional ones... and a kind of excitement about the possibility that some labels (or groups of people resembling something like a label) will adapt to changes in a way that brings a new level of appreciation for the work of artists.

Also, I think that Jon gives a little too much credit to labels (as a whole) regarding the quality of improvised music releases. For the most part, improvised music labels have served as curators of artist-produced works, with very little in terms of "commissions" and pretty much nothing in terms of infrastructure, especially during the recording process. I remember that you (Jon), sometime last year, posted a list of labels that had recently folded, and I don't think there were very many in that list that had anything resembling a producer-oriented model. Labels that provide resources up front and editorial consultation throughout the recording process are and have been exceedingly rare in improvised music (present company obviously excepted), especially since the late '90s. The fact that there are fewer labels around probably has almost nothing to do with your feeling that there are few (or no) good improvised music releases nowadays.

[rainey]

On a side note, I don't think that there are many grounds for predicting the extinction of labels, publishers, etc., and I wouldn't greet that extinction happily. Something that might be important, however, with regards to labels' health and effective functioning is the fact that you can't really search by label in any of the common digital distributers and streaming services. There are going to be a lot of people who find music without developing much in terms of label loyalty.

[jon abbey]

I remember that you (Jon), sometime last year, posted a list of labels that had recently folded, and I don't think there were very many in that list that had anything resembling a producer-oriented model. Labels that provide resources up front and editorial consultation throughout the recording process are and have been exceedingly rare in improvised music (present company obviously excepted), especially since the late '90s. The fact that there are fewer labels around probably has almost nothing to do with your feeling that there are few (or no) good improvised music releases nowadays.

yeah, you're probably right, I got carried away trying to parry that extreme perspective.