ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

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mpisaro
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Re: ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

Post by mpisaro »

GegenSichKollektiv wrote: In Michael Pisaro’s composition, A wave and waves, we can see how Pisaro and Greg Stuart work to re-create the natural dynamics of waves (after coastal observation) in a soundscape piece to delight the listener, with the grandeur of nature. What is the impetus for trying to mimic nature’s processes? This interpretation, with its strong emphasis on the phenomenological character, does nothing but deliver to us the idea of placid nature, her inherent beauty, completely forgetting that a set of waves can also be a destructive tsunami, that there is nothing caring, nature is indifferent to us. This interpretation is clearly the product of Michael Pisaro´s individual self-expression when he chose the series of waves.
GegenSichKollektiv (since you’re here):

At first I will try to deal with questions of fact, since for me most of the interpretations you have made are not really worth arguing over. Also although there are errors throughout, I think I had better confine myself to the area I know most about, which is of course my own work. I would normally not bother you or anyone else with this kind of discussion, but the notion that this could appear in print by a publisher I respect has motivated me to challenge a few of your statements.

I have no problem with critique or critical inquiry into my work or any other. Actually I welcome it—and also try to use it to investigate work I care about. But given the statements in your text I wonder if you actually know the work in question. Your comments suggest that you know about it but may not have experienced it. In A wave and waves there is little or no “re-creation.” The fact that the timing of the second section may have been modeled on one pattern of waves I happened to hear, does not automatically imply that a soundscape has been re-created. I don’t think anyone will ever confuse one of the waves in the second section with the sound of any real wave. As far as I know there are no vibraphones in the ocean. The pattern that results from the process I used is a musical one that cannot be found in “nature” at all. It sounds different and behaves differently and these differences are deliberate.

By the way, what do you mean by "nature"? It seems to me that you’ve settled on a very naïve idea of it as something like the “natural world,” but I hope that’s not the case. Perhaps you are aware that our friend Adorno had a lot to say about this in his Ästhetische Theorie. But you are not using the word in a way that suggests you have understood that discussion.

Have you listened to the first section of A wave and waves at all? Do you know that the “wave” in question is not a natural one (in the sense of the environment), but is in fact an attempt to deal with the nature of the event as depicted in John Ashbery’s poem of the same name? Do you really think, on listening to this piece, that we are dealing with placid “nature”?

It is clearly your interpretation that we seek to “delight the listener with the grandeur of nature” (there’s that word again). I can honestly think of nothing more maudlin or idiotic than such a goal, and will not own up to it. If you are going to say such a thing about our intentions, it is incumbent upon you to prove that those intentions exist. But I’m telling you right now that this is absolutely as far from my own intention as it is possible to get.
Last edited by mpisaro on Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ryansupak
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Re: ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

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Jesse
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Re: ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

Post by Jesse »

http://crowwithnomouth.wordpress.com/

Experimental music should be something that suggests a way of organizing your thinking, your attitude toward the world, which suggests that the world could be different.
Christian Wolff 2014

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Dohol
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Re: ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

Post by Dohol »

Ahahahahahaha...
“In a kind of middle-aged crisis, it dawned upon me that there was a possibility that music might not even be an art form.”

Morton Feldman


http://soundcloud.com/doug-holbrook

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undo
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Re: ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

Post by undo »

this page is going well.

i am seriously considering writing the book's editors about this ungainly clump of misreadings and assumptions. i think it's embarrassing for continuum to publish it, and i really tire of noise/improv/whatever being associated with this kind of yawn-inducing theory-regurgitation.

gegensich, it'd reflect much better on you if you actually addressed some of our criticisms rather than assuming we're clinging to dogma. we're excited, i think, about what you're trying to do, but it seems you're doing a very sloppy and counterproductive job of it. i've read brassier, i've read metzinger, i've read meillassoux, and none of them are anywhere near as muddy in their prose or as unclear in their thinking. you're doing them a disservice, too.

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Miguel Prado
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Re: ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

Post by Miguel Prado »

undo wrote:this page is going well.

i am seriously considering writing the book's editors about this ungainly clump of misreadings and assumptions. i think it's embarrassing for continuum to publish it, and i really tire of noise/improv/whatever being associated with this kind of yawn-inducing theory-regurgitation.

gegensich, it'd reflect much better on you if you actually addressed some of our criticisms rather than assuming we're clinging to dogma. we're excited, i think, about what you're trying to do, but it seems you're doing a very sloppy and counterproductive job of it. i've read brassier, i've read metzinger, i've read meillassoux, and none of them are anywhere near as muddy in their prose or as unclear in their thinking. you're doing them a disservice, too.
of course, that would be appropriate then, censure it?

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undo
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Re: ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

Post by undo »

i'm guessing you mean 'censor,' though i'd settle for either.

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undo
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Re: ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

Post by undo »

i don't want to censor it. continuum can print whatever they'd like, and they could look stupid doing it. i just think it'd be polite to give them a heads-up.

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undo
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Re: ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

Post by undo »

you can do the whole 'imply that my critics are fascists' thing if it suits you. it's a nice sidestep. it'd be braver to try to make some fucking sense out of that mess.

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Miguel Prado
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Re: ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

Post by Miguel Prado »

mpisaro wrote:
GegenSichKollektiv wrote:
By the way, what do you mean by "nature"? It seems to me that you’ve settled on a very naïve idea of it as something like the “natural world,” but I hope that’s not the case. Perhaps you are aware that our friend Adorno had a lot to say about this in his Ästhetische Theorie. But you are not using the word in a way that suggests you have understood that discussion.

Have you listened to the first section of A wave and waves at all? Do you know that the “wave” in question is not a natural one (in the sense of the environment), but is in fact an attempt to deal with the nature of the event as depicted in John Ashbery’s poem of the same name? Do you really think, on listening to this piece, that we are dealing with placid “nature”?

It is clearly your interpretation that we seek to “delight the listener with the grandeur of nature” (there’s that word again). I can honestly think of nothing more maudlin or idiotic than such a goal, and will not own up to it. If you are going to say such a thing about our intentions, it is incumbent upon you to prove that those intentions exist. But I’m telling you right now that this is absolutely as far from my own intention as it is possible to get.
I guess that refers to the issue physical universe vs phenomenological experience of essential qualities

anyway I feel like a criticism that could be applied to many practicies like most of the all field recordings works

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Miguel Prado
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Re: ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

Post by Miguel Prado »

undo wrote:i don't want to censor it. continuum can print whatever they'd like, and they could look stupid doing it. i just think it'd be polite to give them a heads-up.
every day there are a lot of garbage being lauded in the world of music, and lots of incredible things maligned or overlooked, I do not understand, why such a problem with someone who takes the time to write a text that you can be more or less (or no) agreement. so so so identified you feel about these artists and writers to take this text so personally, as if no one could mention the name of God in vain?¿?

and sorry for my english of shit

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undo
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Re: ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

Post by undo »

miguel, it's actually almost impossible to be 'for or against' this text. it's riddled with mistakes and non sequiturs to the point of being senseless. i have no idea what problem it is attempting to frame because of these mistakes and sidetracks. again, i refer you to the deleuze remark about stupidity: the article poses a problem mostly devoid of sense. unfortunately, this blob drags down a lot of people that make good sense along with it, and it dulls the effectiveness of some pretty sharp critical tools.

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jkudler
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Re: ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

Post by jkudler »

undo wrote:this page is going well.

i am seriously considering writing the book's editors about this ungainly clump of misreadings and assumptions. i think it's embarrassing for continuum to publish it, and i really tire of noise/improv/whatever being associated with this kind of yawn-inducing theory-regurgitation.
this speaks to a larger problem (and is maybe out of the purview of this thread), which mr undo and i have discussed a bit elsewhere, but it's frustrating that with so little writing, rhetoric, theory, or critical engagement with "this music," especially in academic or book-length or mainstream treatments, there is a bit of a vacuum into which certain unfortunate agendas can enter (typically, "i care about theory [and my academic reputation/career] and only sort of care of about music but mostly seem to see it through the lens of what academic work i can do with it"). i only read portions of the seth kim-cohen book, and he seems to be in many ways a good faith actor, but a lot of his analyses seems totally divorced from the opinions and consensus of anyone i know who actually cares about this music. (and some of the jive in there is just total nonsense)

so. . i doubt anyone is asking for censorship, but who "owns" the conversation about this world is in some senses political.

-jesse

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undo
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Re: ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

Post by undo »

i repeat, so that miguel/gegensich/whoever doesn't try the same boring tactic again: it's upsetting to read something stupid, especially if it's something you think should be useful or important. it has nothing to do with hurt feelings about the garbled criticisms. i can barely tell what it's trying to say well enough to feel hurt. it's sad when people attempt appeals to philosophical 'authority' without the slightest sense of what the thinker is trying to say, what problem he or she is responding to, etc.

and i oppose the beating of stupid strawmen, like attempting to present someone like michael pisaro as a landscape painter. it's not even pointed enough to be rude. it's just stupid -- it completely misses the point.
Last edited by undo on Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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undo
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Re: ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

Post by undo »

it's also funny to read stuff like this, because the citations come across as pure 'appeal to authority.' which is weird, because the defenders of these pieces want to have it both ways. they want you to respect the philosophical background -- footnotes! -- but then want to claim the supposedly 'radical' or 'punk' right to dumb misreadings (oh, the name of god in vain bit).

it's cool to take a concept and pervert it, to make it say something in it that it didn't want to say. that's what any philosopher of any use does. i like that, a lot. it's cool to fuck concepts up from the inside, to turn them into something else. it's not cool just to fuck them up.

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undo
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Re: ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

Post by undo »

so, uh, mattin... http://sshhhproject.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... t-and.html

what's up with that?

(i mean, i had a feeling, since you are the last man on earth to care about 'metal machine music' in 2011...)

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Miguel Prado
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Re: ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

Post by Miguel Prado »

i remember that Mattin told me that he did some time ago a lecture in u.s about managerial logic with some people who appear in the book
according to this: http://www.continuumbooks.com/books/det ... ectId=1381 , should be very funny that mattin was the author, but i think that are people outside the circle of improvised music.
Last edited by Miguel Prado on Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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undo
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Re: ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

Post by undo »

oh, hilarious.

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Miguel Prado
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Re: ANTI-SELF: EXPERIENCE-LESS NOISE

Post by Miguel Prado »


all people known in what areas i´m interested, but i did not write these essay.
think whatever you like, i talked about similar issues with mattin, manfred, michael, jarrod, and a lot of other people interested in philosophy and noise.
don´t blame me please. I will not talk more about it, allows to accuses to me.
bye