the ethics of file-sharing in experimental music

[faster]

Simon, I understand how you feel, but I don't think file-sharing is the cause of reduced sales of music. I think the larger problems with the economy are much more to blame, and I think a lot of people these days prefer the convenience of having their music on servers of various kinds (mp3 players, etc.) rather than owning physical objects. When I was in grad school in the early nineties, I couldn't afford to buy CDs, so I taped whenever I could, usually from the university radio station. In fact, I did the same as an undergrad from the university library and the downtown Carnegie library. These were pre-internet times obviously, but if I had gone to school during these days with the same low level of income, I would certainly be downloading and plugging in all the time. If you can't afford to buy music, but you want and expect to hear it, you're going to download, ethical questions aside. The problem you're dealing with here is that the growing audience for this music is coming from a younger and lower income demographic, who, if they can't download, won't be buying and adding to your bottom line. The older crowd (generally but not always in a better income demographic) is listening to other kinds of music now, Jesse Goin and a few others excepted.

I agree with a lot of this, but would add that the "new" issue: the kidz today are growing up with free downloading as the norm and may never become buyers even if they get some bucks.

[dolzenko]

I agree with a lot of this, but would add that the "new" issue: the kidz today are growing up with free downloading as the norm and may never become buyers even if they get some bucks.

Not sure, I thought kids don't know about torrents and normally purchase songs from iTunes or likes

My 2cents: obviously without file sharing I wouldn't have a slightest chance to get into as much music as I did through the past years. In other words - yeah - being forced to buy music won't make me sell my house, most likely I'd just find another 'cheaper' 'interests' to be involved in (I know this may sound apocryphal/rude considering the context of the board )

[washline]

Bill, how do you arrive at the age demographic above - on the basis of fora like IHM? Are you guessing somewhat?
Not even challenging your take [younger = eai-orientation, older = other musics]; it challenges my not-very-reflected-on assumption that it is nearly the reverse of what you say, or perhaps 50/50.
Do you principally mean jazz and *classical* is the metier of the *older* crowd?

edit/afterthought: abbey, hatta, pinnell, alastair, chabala, 40- late/40-ish, right? me, brian o., 50+...this is hardly a large sample size, but i don't know what decade the kud, vanessa, et al are in, but the 7-8 above are pretty hardcore.

Those are all very good points, Jesse, but my gauge has been some years of following the music/discussion on places like here as well as sitting in on conversations online where Jon has said similar things about the demographic as I recall. The "older crowd" listens to jazz, classical and older rock and roll music. This is also the demographic for a lot of the new, high end vinyl product. Yes the names you mention from the older crowd, and we should add Herb Levy, are very hardcore but it's a smaller, consistent crew. I may be wrong here, and Jon would know a lot better, but that's my sense.

Joe makes an interesting and important point as well that to be honest he's more knowledgeable than I am.

[J.F.]

Without file-sharing, my collection (at least in the department of official stuff) wouldn't look that much different. When I started collecting music, I just read books, magazines, studied mail order lists, bought some more books, ohh, I remember I even typed musician's discographies and assembled label-lists from the mentioned sources myself to get a good overview of what's there. If a musician really impressed me, I got downright into a research-mode. And before I even developped any interest in the internet (around 2002?), I had together about 3/4 of my current collection of official (bought) stuff.

Well, I do download stuff... mostly unofficial live recordings, and also the occasional o.o.p.-releases, but the latter mostly sit on my harddrive unheard, often just completing discographies of artists I liked 20 years ago.

I inform myself about newly discovered artists via internet of course, but there's still enough ways to get an idea about a group without the involvement of file sharing of official stuff.

[washline]

Herb Levy and Caleb Deupree. Probably a few more that I'm forgetting. I started following/discussing in '99 on the Zornlist. Jesse K was on there as I recall and I believe he was in university then. He's probably early 30s now. I suspect most of the avid audience is Jesse K's age or younger.

[the bird]

Without file-sharing I think it would have been impossible for me to find so much experimental music that has zero promotion. Now, if I love something I'll do everything I can to buy it.
It has it's pros and cons I guess, better for some and worst for others.

[jon abbey]

Not sure, I thought kids don't know about torrents and normally purchase songs from iTunes or likes

hahaha, really? so you think it's adults primarily using thepiratebay or what.cd? I think it's mostly younger people, whenever I mention torrents to anyone older, they generally seem pretty baffled by the concept.

not sure exactly why we're trying to project a general audience age from a handful of big mouth online posters, and it's hard for me to speak as to how the demographics of this audience compare to that of say the Vision Fest, as I haven't been to the Vision Fest in years. but there are certainly plenty of young people deeply into this music, many of whom buy as much as they can afford.

honestly I don't think Simon is especially interested in changing what he does much, I've offered him plenty of advice privately and publicly before. I will say publicly that he is now roughly around the point (four years into his label) that I was when I started ErstDist, which I did not because I had almost any interest in running a distro, but almost totally to try to help Erstwhile survive via trading CDs with other labels. as the worldwide distro situation for this music is pretty terrible right now (not that it was ever very good) and sound 323 is basically defunct for stocking new items, this would be a perfect way for Simon to help his label survive and hopefully thrive IMO.

[surfer]

we're finding bartering is essential and meets with a lot of *that's-not-in-my-conceptual-box* resistance/reluctance.
it is interesting for me to be reading pretty in depth, as i try to make the cwnm thing fly, about the history of anarchism, as guilds/barter/syndicalism were essential elements. allie is a development director, so i get a lot of ideas from her, including the pursuit of a small-ish [but adequate] curator's grant for a concert series idea in 2012. i am not a 501[c][3], so the studio where i am presenting shows has offered to be my sponsoring agent, as they are.

These are two great ideas, I hadnt even thought of the later. I thought briefly about whether a record label could incorporate as a 501c3 (I see no reason why they couldnt), but the only two advantages would be to avoid having to pay taxes, and being able to access grant money. And no one starts a record label so they can write grants. However, if like you say, you partner with an organization (primarily thinking museums and other venues, but also maybe a community cultural institution) that can access grant money you can share to be able to offset the cost of not only putting on concerts, but also perhaps creating a CD from it. The Rowe / Rothko Chapel show and CD is a textbook example of a partnership that can and should be able to access grant money and use it to produce the concert and accompanying CD. It helps if the concert and art in the museum are related, and it would really help if the Rowe CD packaging had a Rothko painting on it, on something related to the man and his art rather than the ugly lavender color.

Bartering, as you mention is also key, not only as Jon mentioned trading product for product, but also product for services, and services for services. Trying to get supporters to consider donating their skills, time to the production of the music. Another weird thought: who does the assembly of the CD packaging (not digipack, something like Gravity Wave or Cathnor, those slip cases): folding, inserting CD, sliding into plastic? Is that something you could get volunteers to do rather than paying someone to do? Just pay for printing and materials and get an army of volunteers to assemble it?

FWIW, the reason I've never done this is that I don't like asking people to pay for something that doesn't actually exist yet, especially if there's a chance it might not happen at all (Martin Tetreault/Le Quan Ninh and Tim Barnes/Jason Lescalleet were two Erst projects that were on the schedule for a long time, but ended up falling through). I don't even like to take preorders before a project has gone to the plant, because who knows if there will be a last minute butting of heads or whatever.

Fair enough, those are reasonable concerns. Though what I had in mind was something to the effect of:

Membership is $X, and includes 4 new Erst CDs in the upcoming year. The tenative production schedule is XXXX for 2011, but your 4 CDs can be any CDs from the entire catalogue. If, due to forces outside of our control we only happen to release 3 CDs in 2011, then your fourth CD will have to be from the back catalogue. Additional perks include:

X% off any and all Erstdist orders

Your pick of X of the following items: stuff, stuff, and cool stuff

Priority seating at any Erst sponsored concert event.

Admission to an afterevent party or special event tbd.

One order of 6 macaroons from Yuko (your choice of flavor)

The knowledge that you are helping support a small but vital experimental music scene and the musicians who make some of the most exciting music of the new millenium.


There's probably many reasons why this wouldnt work, but its just an idea.

[Jesse]

not sure exactly why we're trying to project a general audience age from a handful of big mouth online posters, and it's hard for me to speak as to how the demographics of this audience compare to that of say the Vision Fest, as I haven't been to the Vision Fest in years. but there are certainly plenty of young people deeply into this music, many of whom buy as much as they can afford.

right, as i said, my sense of who the audience is is guess-work and assumptions based on the big mouth posters. how could it be otherwise? bill's demarcation surprised me, as it challenges that. you sort of answer the first part of your post [not sure why we're trying to project...] with the last part [it's obviously speculation/guesswork].
i do know a number of loud mouth posters from when i entered the fray/fora in 2004 have essentially dropped their initial hardcoreness as they've aged [crawjo, sonic, that chris guy in seattle whose handle i forget...]

[RFKorp]

One order of 6 macaroons from Yuko (your choice of flavor)

I have a feeling you just sold a few people on ErstClub Memberships

[jon abbey]

Another weird thought: who does the assembly of the CD packaging (not digipack, something like Gravity Wave or Cathnor, those slip cases): folding, inserting CD, sliding into plastic? Is that something you could get volunteers to do rather than paying someone to do? Just pay for printing and materials and get an army of volunteers to assemble it?

Yuko does Gravity Wave, complete with compressed air gun to remove dust along the way. she remarkably did 140 of each yesterday, they look fantastic (new printer for this pair). the plastic sleeves and disc sleeve were bought in Japan, the paper insert was done at one printer, and the CDs at a second printer, all shipped here and hand-assembled. I'm sure Richard does Cathnor himself (and I know he gets the plastic sleeves from Japan also, as they seem to be the only ones capable of making nice ones).

Fair enough, those are reasonable concerns. Though what I had in mind was something to the effect of:

(etc, etc)

that seems like a major pain in the ass to keep track of, but more importantly, this basically happens unofficially already. people like mudd and many others can tell you about 'priority seating' at Erst events, if it's at all possible, I make sure the people I know and the most serious fans get in with good seats. I don't think that's going to be too possible at the Stone, but we'll see.

again, this kind of prepaying club idea is something I've given a fair amount of thought to over the years, but in the end, I just don't think it will work for me. I appreciate the thought, though.

we do need to figure out how to start shipping macarons within the US, though, maybe after the fest/s are over.

[surfer]

we do need to figure out how to start shipping macarons within the US, though, maybe after the fest/s are over.

You need to find a way to imprint the Erst "E" on the top of the macaroons.

[fslmy]

i still can't believe a billionaire with down to earth values hasn't fallen in love with the music and privately contacted any of the producers with a blank check in the name of art. fingers crossed eh..

[faster]

I heard Carlos Slim is a huge Sean Meehan fan.

[yonhosago]

someone told me that Sebastián Piñera is behind all ala1RECS & No hermanos Carrasco's activities

[presquepartout]

the OP really missed out by not titling this thread "towards an ethic of file-sharing"

[simon reynell]

I like Surfer’s suggestions that CD labels should learn from ideas already current in the non-profit sector, and that we should “start thinking beyond the business supply / demand model”. And I agree that ‘the worst option’ is the ‘passive option’: to carry on releasing music as before, and just “hope that people buy it, and pray that they don’t download it illegally”. Some kind of adaptation to the fact of digital distribution is, I think, essential.

Washline wrote: “Simon, I understand how you feel, but I don’t think file-sharing is the cause of reduced sales of music.”
Just for the record, neither do I; I think the decline in CD sales is the result of several factors, including those that Bill goes on to outline. My point was simply that in a context of declining sales, filesharing isn’t helping and the ethics of it was worth addressing.

But more importantly, I want to go back to one of the questions I raised in my original post: From a musician’s point of view, why continue with CDs at all? In a world where there’s virtually no money to be made from CDs and where digital distribution networks already exist, I want to understand why many musicians in this sector still want to release their music on disc.

Answers please.

[schiksalgemeinschaft]

one answer seems to be very clear: as documents of what they do. like in the title of the lescalleet comp.
people like to leave behind traces of their existence on this planet.

also, the album is an art form, and for a lot of people it doesn't seem finished if it's not released to the public. the most respected way of releasing it still is the physical form of cd or lp. releasing physical music gives you credibility.


I don't think there's much else to it?

[simon reynell]

ok, to be more explicit: earlier in the thread Mark described CDs as "obselete...inefficient, over-priced". Although I personally still like CDs, I think there's some truth in Mark's assessment, and it feels increasingly like CDs are an unfashionable historical residue from a previous era. So if people want to release their music (to leave a trace of their existence on this planet, or whatever), what do they see as the advantages of releasing it as a CD as opposed to a digital release either on their own website or on a netlabel such as Homophoni or Compost and Height or even on SoundCloud, or else - if they want to receive some money - as a pay-for download at Boomkat or Itunes?
I want to understand better why CD as a format has survived up till now & what useful function it can still have for musicians in this area of music.

[schiksalgemeinschaft]

it takes longer than a short decade to change people's mindsets. e.g. there still are people who don't believe in evolution.

the other main thing is: digital releases aren't physical (art) objects.

some other reasons have surfaced in this thread too:
digital releases don't get as much reviews, digital releases are still considered inferior ("if it were really good, some label would release it on cd" + it's exactly the same product you can get for free via filesharing), iTunes doesn't support some lossless formats, etc., etc.

and there's probably trust issues as well:
"I know I'm lazy at making backups, what if my laptop with all my music gets stolen or a virus deletes all or..." (music lover) + "will that site that releases my digital album be up for eternity?" (musician)