Recently Watched Films

[walto]

FWIW, my remark about the Jimmy Stewart rub down had nothing at all to do with who was administering it.

[Dan Warburton]

You seem to be comparing the films based entirely on how hot the women in them are: "the voluptuous Anita Ekberg" vs. "the considerable attractions of Romy Schneider". I thought Visconti's Il Lavoro was the strongest by far, and Romy Schneider is excellent as Pupe.

It's rather hard to compare three such different films. The De Sica is the weakest by far - maybe your sexist jibe applies there, but I'm not sure.

You're really getting carried away with these reductive comments, and with the help of a few other people all too eager to join in you've turned this whole thread into a sexist fest.

So it's sexist to say a woman is attractive? Give me a fucking break, man. Or woman. You should hear my wife laughing - I've just shown her this.

I dislike your sloppy use of language (I imagine you're one of those people who'd describe themselves as "devastated" by a "tragic" car accident..). FYI: sexism "The belief that one sex (usually the male) is naturally superior to the other and should dominate most important areas of political, economic, and social life." (The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.)
Not only is this a belief that I do not subscribe to, but I defy you to find concrete examples of such a discriminatory attitude in any of the comments I've posted in this thread.

Anyway, your indignation is amusingly ironic, making you sound as pompous and ridiculous as the Dr Antonio Fellini so brilliantly portrays in the film in question.

Ever so sorry to be carried away - at least I actually contribute something on a regular basis to this thread, which is more than I can say for you, whatever your real name is.

Meanwhile, maybe I should refrain from commenting on Annie Girardot's spectacular acting in



Luchino Visconti, Rocco I Suoi Fratelli, 1960

[anastasia vronski]

I too had noted the thread changing. I don't think any instance can be called sexism if from time to time one remarks on the body but the amount of it becomes sexist.
Cinema uses exploitation of women bodies and in many cases out of it what remains , not much.
Not to be conscious of this is maybe not sexist it is a lack of conscienceness.
i had a raw with Dan W about violence against women in cinema. Look at the choice of last picture : the knife in his hand and the heavy coat and she is not cold? Probably the climate is different on the right side of the picture ?
For what I know Dan W has already called his wife for shield when I told him about violence.
Sexism NO but testoterone overdose YES .
I've been laughing a lot reading in the last months and I thought ''let the little boys have fun ...''

The scales are uneven in our societies , mostly films are made by men and we don't have a lot to enjoy when we watch, as a cinema specialist if I dare ask you what films on the ''oestrogen'' side of the world are interesting ?. I like Clit Iswood

[fearandpanic]

So it's sexist to say a woman is attractive?

No, and that's not the criticism, as you know. But it is sexist to imply, as you have repeatedly, that a woman's attractiveness or unattractiveness is her principal or her only contribution to a film, while the male actors or writers or directors are treated in detail in relation to other considerations. If Romy Schneider is singled out for her role, it's not for her role in general but for her bare back being whipped, a fantasy that takes over from your comments about the film. Someone else orders the film "just for that scene." Also, if one of this troupe of posters is posting about a film and can find a screencap of the only scene in it when a female character is in their pants, that's the one to go for, evidently. As Anastasia says, there is frequently sexism bound up in the production of the films already (particularly in the ones you favour, European art cinema of the 60s and 70s), so it's possible to take up a number of positions in relation to that fact: you've often gone for uncritical revelling in it.

You opted in your slightly hysterical response for a quick escape by distorting the criticism into something that's easier for you to dismiss out of hand. But now that the topic has come up, I will say that I have seen many unnecessary and unpleasant comments--more often just sad and inapprorpriate ("Worth it for Thomas's amazing writing though, and for Susan Penhaligon drawing lipstick circles around her nipples")--over the last few pages at least. I don't want to go back over pages of it just to find examples, since you have "defied" people to do that, but I assure you they're there. They're in your posts and they're in a few others. As for you comparing the attractiveness of Thelma Ritter and Grace Kelly, it's not that I am "indignant" about it--I'd just rather not hear your views on this as you line them up for Cinematic Miss World. A female actor in another film is described as being "about as sexy as her little 70s polyester trouser suit"--well, so what. What does that have to do with anything.

It does appear to me too that you're gettting carried away in this and also that others are joining in; for instance, in dismissing Olivia de Havilland but with others praising her for "bringing the milkiest of busoms to A Midsummernight's Dream." Everyone gets worked up at the prospect of a "rub down"--pity it's "just" Thelma Ritter and not Grace Kelly. Another young actor becomes "a cutie." A sequence of short films is reduced to "the considerable attractions of, respectively, Romy Schneider and Sophia Loren." These all have a cumulative effect, and it's sad to see what's ostensibly a film thread become a little boys' club.

What you have to imagine is, on another board, two or several women comparing 8 1/2 and Rocco and his Brothers based solely on the relative hotness of Alain Delon and Marcello Mastroianni: their cheekbones, their dimples, the scene when one takes off his jacket (what a dreamboat!), being SO hot in that boxing scene. Sexist, debatable, but idiotic, yes.

Ever so sorry to be carried away - at least I actually contribute something on a regular basis to this thread, which is more than I can say for you, whatever your real name is.

Actually, posting a lot doesn't put aspects of your posts above criticism. Flippancy and sarcasm on your part doesn't seem to me the best way for you to respond to this, but at least you know now.

[mudd]

ouch.

ok, so this is a very serious problem that we can surely solve quickly and easily. everybody, please be conscious of the role you allow sexist commentary to play in your posting and try to avoid it. i know it's easy to overlook because i've been following this thread loosely and had no idea the volume of comments was enough to disturb anyone. but the last thing i want is for any of these threads to exclude potential posters because of an offensive tone.

and please try not to turn this around on the accusers, through whatever means we have identified a problem and we can fix this. this is a good thread and very much the life blood of the IHF forum. i don't want anyone to stop posting because the tone has gotten bad over time, i just need everyone to be a little more thoughtful.

(and for the record mari is not anonymous here. her name is, of all things, mari.)

are we cool? in the future, if anyone has a problem about a thread become offensive without the contributors or moderators noticing, please feel free to send a private message to me so i can address the problem without necessarily singling people out. it's my fault for not recognizing the thread had gone too far. so informed and aware, on we go.

are we cool? i'm going to leave this discussion in the thread for the time being as a reminder/note for new participants. but please, carry on with the thread.

thanks for your understanding everyone.

m

[Dan Warburton]

No problem, I'll keep my flippant, sarcastic, sexist and offensive comments to myself - oh, but spare us similar remarks about how nice Ami Yoshida's green nail varnish was etc in threads elsewhere

[mudd]

actually that isn't ok either. i thought we'd had that out in the really long thread about women in experimental music, but i will certainly be more vigilant in the future.

m

[walto]

I'm wondering now whether my own remark (intended to be about how unpleasant it is to look at Jimmy Stewart with his shirt off--especially with his flesh being jiggled around) was also considered sexist or in some other way inappropriate. I think what bothers me about it--and Cary Grant's shirtless scenes and kissing fests with Eva Marie in "North By Northwest" as well--is largely the male fantasy aspect. These (old) men were matinee idols, sex symbols, etc., and were put in movies with women half their age (and only really pretty ones, presumably), even though, at least by today's standards they are pretty hard to look at, shirtless. The make-out scene in "North by Northwest" seems almost like child molestation to me. It may be a Hitchcockian fantasy, but it's one that's hard for this geezer (and father of two girls) to look at.

[jon abbey]

that's one reason I haven't been able to watch Woody Allen films for years, him using that power relationship to cast himself in 'romantic' roles with young women makes me kind of sick.

[fearandpanic]

The White Ribbon (2009, directed by Michael Haneke)

Haneke's new film, focusing on a mysterious cycle of violence in a small village in Germany in 1913, with an eye-poppingly realistic but formally severe visual style and astonishing acting, especially from the many children. The events are offered by the narrator as an attempt to understand the origins of what would happen in Germany in the period when the children depicted would have been adults.



Ordinary Fascism (1965, documentary by Mikhail Romm)

Soviet documentary about fascism in Europe based on newsreel film and harrowing photographs from Nazi archives. It concentrates on the bizarre daily life and self-mythologising of the fascists and their devotees rather than on the already familiar grand events and battles. Some modern footage is included to contrast that hellish world with the children of the post-war generation. The ironic and caustic narration by the director is suitably blackly funny when it needs to be, and his witty and intimate voice wanders freely between traditional narration, wry satire, and speculative digressions about the future.

[walto]

that's one reason I haven't been able to watch Woody Allen films for years, him using that power relationship to cast himself in 'romantic' roles with young women makes me kind of sick.

Yeah, I think that started in "Manhattan" and, just when I thought he had outgrown that kind of thing, Helena Bonham-Carter apparently wasn't young or sexy enough for his character in "Aphrodite." When he hooked up with his girlfriend's daughter, everybody was appalled for awhile and a bunch of people claimed his career was through. But he told them they were crazy and he appears to have been correct.

[Dan Warburton]

Morris Engel, Little Fugitive, 1953

Missing link between Italian neorealism and French Nouvelle Vague? ("Our New Wave would never have come into being if it hadn’t been for the young American Morris Engel, who showed us the way to independent production with his fine movie The Little Fugitive," – Francois Truffaut)

[Wombatz]

I'm wondering now whether my own remark (intended to be about how unpleasant it is to look at Jimmy Stewart with his shirt off--especially with his flesh being jiggled around) was also considered sexist or in some other way inappropriate. I think what bothers me about it--and Cary Grant's shirtless scenes and kissing fests with Eva Marie in "North By Northwest" as well--is largely the male fantasy aspect. These (old) men were matinee idols, sex symbols, etc., and were put in movies with women half their age (and only really pretty ones, presumably), even though, at least by today's standards they are pretty hard to look at, shirtless. The make-out scene in "North by Northwest" seems almost like child molestation to me. It may be a Hitchcockian fantasy, but it's one that's hard for this geezer (and father of two girls) to look at.

While Grant's much too old and flabby for the role (btw an actor whose skills cannot be seperated from the dimple in his chin), I think the Stewart shot makes sense. Just imagine a young and attractive actor with the same grumpy behavior and the same self-pitying lines, I think it would be really intolerable to watch the woman take it all. His ugliness along with the wheelchair give him the necessary vulnerability to make it kind of ok.

[leroysghost]

awkward hollywood title night:

Chris Weitz - The Twilight Saga: New Moon (2009)

decidedly undoes all the good of the first film while retaining the originals entertaining atrociousness (no vampire basketball though ). all the main character is allowed to do here pine over her manipulative loser (vampire) boyfriend and engage in reckless behavior just so she can hallucinate him coming to her rescue!
it's worth noting that Taylor Lautner had to pack on 30 pounds of muscle to avoid being replaced and in doing so was kept on (shirtless 90% of the time) regardless of his inability to act worth a damn. talk about sexism...


Werner Herzog - The Bad Lieutenant: Port of Call New Orleans (2009)

Herzog's only good film not anchored by his own personality in 20 odd years. a very fun, very cynical trifle (or should that be truffle?).

[walto]

I'm wondering now whether my own remark (intended to be about how unpleasant it is to look at Jimmy Stewart with his shirt off--especially with his flesh being jiggled around) was also considered sexist or in some other way inappropriate. I think what bothers me about it--and Cary Grant's shirtless scenes and kissing fests with Eva Marie in "North By Northwest" as well--is largely the male fantasy aspect. These (old) men were matinee idols, sex symbols, etc., and were put in movies with women half their age (and only really pretty ones, presumably), even though, at least by today's standards they are pretty hard to look at, shirtless. The make-out scene in "North by Northwest" seems almost like child molestation to me. It may be a Hitchcockian fantasy, but it's one that's hard for this geezer (and father of two girls) to look at.

While Grant's much too old and flabby for the role (btw an actor whose skills cannot be seperated from the dimple in his chin), I think the Stewart shot makes sense. Just imagine a young and attractive actor with the same grumpy behavior and the same self-pitying lines, I think it would be really intolerable to watch the woman take it all. His ugliness along with the wheelchair give him the necessary vulnerability to make it kind of ok.

With all this talk about Grant and Stewart I was reminded that for years, one of my favorite scenes ever was something with those two. I was never much of a Grant fan (particularly hating him and all his little squeaks in "Arsenic and Old Lace") but there's this one scene in "Philadelphia Story" where he always seemed so great to me, even though (or maybe because) he doesn't say much of anything. Stewart is drunk and ranting about Hepburn, and he just sits there with the sort of knowing look that one sometimes has with stoned ranters. I just loved his half-smile, and I thought it was a face he'd learned from hanging with Timothy Leary and that gang when they were monologuing about some door of perception or other. Certainly, it was a face I knew from my own college days.

But then I happened to see it again last year and it didn't do a thing for me. I guess screen performances are like musical performances in that our reactions depend so much on what we're going through ourselves when we first catch them.

[leroysghost]

everything about Arsenic and Old Lace is painfully bad, but i've always found Cary Grant very likeable and charismatic otherwise. personally though, i find his voice to be much sexier than his chin.


John Boorman - Point Blank (1967)

not really any better than Zardoz. laughable, juvenile stylization and pre-but-sub-roeg editing.

[Dan Warburton]

Federico Fellini, Amarcord, 1973

[Buddy Glass]

The Road

Watered down but still deeply unpleasant, just without any kind of real payoff. It really should have been made by someone like Haneke - austere, bleak, and absolutely no pulled punches.

[MRS]

Miss Pettigrew Lives for a Day, kind of empty but I enjoyed it. More importantly Ciarán Hinds can do no wrong, and one for the bizarre resume bin, a penchant for saving an ounce of worth in otherwise poor films. Shame it looks as he's going down the fantasy shitchute.

[Dan Warburton]

Otto Preminger - Anatomy of a Murder (1959)

great stuff, aside from the lame Duke Ellington cameo

Aww, I liked that. I find the idea of Ellington (here called Pie-Eye) jamming in a roadhouse in the backwoods of Michigan is quite amusing. I've got the OST on vinyl and love it.
Meanwhile, a good movie but a bit on the long side - don't know how he could have made it much shorter though. As well as Scott, Lee Remick and Ben Gazzara are both excellent (you know there's something fishy about the story from the get go).