Newlondonwhat?

[faster]

So we've blown off course a little. Is there any consensus among the UKers here that something musically new is happening in London that's worth paying attention to? Are there some CDs or files I should hear that represent it? I'm genuinely curious--although I'm not much of a taxonomy guy, people don't up and propose new names for areas of music without at least some reason. Is the idea that something in London needs a name the result of a new community or a new approach to music (or both, of course)?

And if it's the latter, can someone talk about that? Like I said, I really have no reference point other than a few (few-years-old) things I've heard with Wastell, Davis, and the Davieseses.

[Richard Pinnell]

So we've blown off course a little. Is there any consensus among the UKers here that something musically new is happening in London that's worth paying attention to? .

New? Probably not, but then I don't think anyone here said that. If anything unprecedented is happening it may just be the way that the artificial barriers in the music (or perhaps more importantly how the music is presented) are being broken down and there is a sense of collective, energetic community right now, across the board but centred in part around the enabler that is Café Oto.

There are a lot of new, often (but not always) younger names that have suddenly appeared, all at the same time. Give things six to twelve months and I am sure a few CDs will appear. They may or may not be good documents of what is going on but for now there is plenty of energy and potential for good music to be recorded. I wouldn't say that there is any new or typical style of playing that could be put forward as representative of London at present.

people don't up and propose new names for areas of music without at least some reason. I

it was a joke! really as simple as that. there is no "area of music" really to describe. The excitement I feel (or hype if people like I'm not bothered) comes from seeing concert after concert getting announced that I would like to attend, meeting new people at every gig who I had never heard of before but are doing interesting things, watching older generations of musicians revitalised by playing with younger etc etc... I have closely followed the improvised music scene in London for fifteen years now and can honestly and genuinely say that there is more positivity about the place right now than I have felt for about a decade. That is it really, nothing more and nothing less.

[simon reynell]

I was mulling a response to Joe's question while in the garden, but when I came back in I found that Richard had beaten me to it and said almost exactly what I was going to say.

I'll add two little things: on the taxonomy, a new name is a temptation only because the existing categories don't describe the musics being played in any way that's remotely enlightening or useful. As we've already seen from this discussion, 'Newlondonwhat?' is a bit problematic in relation to the 'new' and the 'london', but the 'what?' is good, I think.

Secondly, while I hope that new musics will emerge, I for one don't want the current bustle and energy around improvised music in London to develop into a single coherent movement or style. I prefer heterodoxy to orthodoxy, and the diversity and unpredictability of the scene at present is partly what excites me.

[faster]

Thanks guys

[Stephen]

I can only really reiterate Richard and Simon. The thing which seems new, to me, is the growth of a community, both of players and audiences who are interested in a more inclusive approach to music. Meaning that the 'scene' is not defined by a narrow, prescriptive genre (which has been the swan song of so many genres) but by an appreciation and engagement with adventurous approaches to music, be it composed, improvised, reductionist, noisy or whatever. One of the best things about Cafe Oto is its lack of a 'house style'. No there's probably not a radical new musical development about to happen (at least from ihm'ers perspective), but as far as your average occasional gig-goer is concerned the advent of a vibrant, not-so-cliquey and genuinely experimental venue/community is something to be excited about.

Please don't try to give it a name, it's pointless and counterproductive.

[P. Wretch]

To add a sceptical voice, according to the teleological narrative favoured by several on this board (i.e. 'EFI' was superseded by the more advanced and refined 'EAI', and thus any re-emergence of elements of the former constitute a historical regression), I strongly doubt anything currently done by UK musicians would be considered 'new'.

Amongst the few gambits left to purist improvising musicians at the present are 1) to work in the 'grey area' discussed in another thread, and 2) to work towards a rapprochement with more popular idioms. Both may cause neophiles to yawn, but it would seem they are fairly popular with audiences. Having said that, I still think the level of 'cross-fertilisation' taking place is being exaggerated; we are at risk of turning OTO into a 'Manchester Free Trade Hall 1976' type myth.

[jon abbey]

Patrick, Jez, whoever else:

first off, I'm not trying to piss people off by my posts here, so genuine apologies if I have.

secondly, Richard can keep saying the title term is a joke, but clearly that's not the point. the point is that people in London (and Luka) seem to think that there's a new community forming, if not a genuinely new style of music. as someone who hasn't been able to afford trips to Europe for a few years now (since 2005, actually, and it really sucks, but whatever), and as someone who not only runs a label, but also one of the main few worldwide distributors of this music, I'm just trying to figure out what, if anything, is actually going on, who I should be paying attention to, and whether there are recordings I should be distributing that I'm not.

why one generation should or should'nt mingle with another generation (which i personally think is a little bit silly, i love playing with jez, rhodri, angharad, matt, etc etc etc, and then to have someone say that they think having one generation being influenced by another is a bad idea, well, how would you want it to work?

that's a fair and reasonable question, so here's my shot at an answer: I believe that maybe the most important thing in this music is developing your own voice. this isn't nearly as clear a concept as it is in an area like jazz or even EFI, where the most interesting players are usually almost immediately identifiable. developing a voice in (collaborative) EAI is a more nebulous concept, it involves doing what it takes to make that specific project work, and often involves becoming something of a chameleon-like musical personality, while still being able to contribute to a strong overall statement. for instance, if you listen to the 4g project (Rowe/Ambarchi/Fennesz/Nakamura), it's often hard to tell that Rowe is even part of the proceedings, but clearly the results would be decidedly different if he wasn't.

so developing this 'voice' for anyone is hard enough, but when one repeatedly comes into contact and is influenced by an older generation, who have had decades to set their own ideas and usually have their own very strong opinions on things, of course the natural reaction for anyone would be to use some of those same ideas in one's own work. what I'm saying is that IMO this tends to hinder the development of people developing into something genuinely 'new', but instead ends up as a hodgepodge, as I said earlier. Simon sees this as a generally exciting thing, I don't.

so, how would I want it to work? well, I'm talking more in the abstract, but I believe that communities that develop largely on their own (the aforementioned Seoul one is a current example; the small group of Australians who emerged a few years ago: Guthrie, Sussmann, Gulbenkoglu; and the most crucial one to this music is of course the Tokyo group of the last nineties, just to name a few) are more likely to be able to contribute an additional area to this still-developing music.

this also touches on a topic where Eddie Prevost and I (and Keith R, if I can speak for him on this, and I think I can) strongly disagree: the concept of 'communitarianism'. Eddie, judging by his last book, believes that a band like MIMEO is a problem, as it's a project with musicians drawn from all over Europe. he believes that the community in 'communitarianism' needs to be a local one.

I (and Keith) also believe very strongly in 'communitarianism', but our community is a global one, as much as possible. if Keith's strongest collaborators are primarily Japanese (Toshi and Sachiko), if some of Radu Malfatti's are (Sugimoto and Unami), that's extremely healthy for the long term development of this music. one reason that most genres tend to end their creative peak relatively quickly (talking historical now) is that most genres have coalesced from a group based in one geographic area, and those tend to burn out pretty quickly.

what I want, more than anything, is for this area to remain creatively vital as long as possible, and that's why I think the global community aspect (in addition to the of course fundamentally important local one) is essential. MIMEO specifically IMO has been massive in its influence: for numerous reasons, but simply for the influence that Fennesz and Pita have had on Keith (and vice versa), I think it's been a crucial project.

[lukaz]

Well Jon i agree w you on a global scale. I didn't say that i would like to single out what's happening in London against anything else (i am obssesivly following everything that is happening from Tokyo to Berlin via Seoul thru Shitenia and backandforthupanddown etc ...(and in general don't even consider to think about music in geographical terms- especially not London compared to what happened in Tokyo w Offsite and in Berlin for example where certain aesthetics were followed more systematically) i just express my curiosity in what's happening there in recent time. What started as a joke and my personal interest and at the begining interesting debate has as unfortunately many times here at IHM turned into something ugly forcing me to again reconsider if i want to participate again. It is not about me at all but i do take offens if someone like Hatta out of his cozy little hole has the nerve to call people who put their passion, creativity, etc into something ... as 'just a hype'. (so newlondonhype??? ) and basically saying to them that their opinion is worth shit (i know i know based on 'recorded' evidence 'London' is nothing more and nothing less than "post-EFI"/"Prevost oriented AMM" ... how deaf and blind are some of us ).

I can agree on the problems that emerge when a scene closes itself, but you also now how difficult is to get gigs not only in yr nearby area but especially abroad, where you can play w locals, etc ... and in my experiances it is also hard to invite foreign artist for a decent money to play. And clearly here we talk about two poles that IMO shouldn't be mixed- one is recorded and released material and the other is where music is happening live. I still believe the later is where it really lives and as such itapparently now lives in Cafe Oto and elsewhere in London and it's surroundings judging by reports- and that makes me curious to hear more, learn more and be there!

[jon abbey]

And clearly here we talk about two poles that IMO shouldn't be mixed- one is recorded and released material and the other is where music is happening live. I still believe the later is where it really lives

see, as important as I think live shows are, this is a perspective I'll always disagree with. the music lives on a worldwide scale via recordings, the vast majority of the audience will never be able to see their favorite musicians live (in this music).

[lukaz]

I don't think we disagree, i am saying it is cruical that it lives live and then it can also transfer part of it's development on the record that can represent it on another level. And in improv, especially in latest years, these (personal, group, aesthetic, ....) developments are so fast that usually what you get on the record is not an accurate picture anymore (and you can capture that picture only represented live, on the spot, where and when is happening ...). Of course there are also exceptions there ...

Since i live in Shitenia i can just imagine how exciting moment it can be for ones who are involved when something special happens on the spot (like it did in Berlin or Tokyo or Vienna, ...) and this is something that a record could never capture. But you probably know that from Amplify ...

[Stephen]

the music lives on a worldwide scale via recordings

The obvious truth of this fact is something that I have been finding increasingly ironic in a music which prides itself on improvisation (but that's another topic).

Jon, I too take your point about the global scale and wonder if one reason this is valuable is that it slows down the pace of proceedings. A collaboration may take years rather than weeks to reach fruition if there are thousands rather than tens of miles between the folks involved.

But, this also takes some of the energy out of a scene, as Richard and Patrick say there is a fair dose of young blood floating around the UK scene right now, people who are energetic and enthusiastic to play together as often as possible, and the size of our island makes that not too difficult, and I don't think that's necessarily either impatience or short-sightedness (not that you said either) but simply making the best of the present opportunity. Maybe in a couple of years some really interesting stuff might have been spawned, but I don't see the need to cut down sprouts.

[hatta]

I probably should just stop while I'm behind, but I feel I should clarify a couple of things. First off, I probably was overly dismissive in my posts for which I apologize, I really didn't mean to be so in my initial post. I did open that post stating that I thought it was great that people were excited about the scene. And I really meant that, my local scene, though some great stuff occurs, I would say definitely is lacking in enthusiasm and positivity and that does have measurable impact. But I do think there is some danger in enthusiasm for a scene being more about the scene and not the music. To me this becomes a social situation which is great for those involved but isn't really about the music. Let me stress that this is totally cool and I have no complaints about it, but once stuff starts being discussed openly outside that scene then I think the wrong impression can easily be made. While I was perhaps unkind about it, the more this occurs the more it seems like hype. Crying wolf perhaps is another way to put it. Not that I necessarily doubt anyone's sincerity - I'm sure that everyone is genuinely enjoying the energy and the excitement. But can you blame those of us not participating in the social aspects of the scene if what we are interested in is the results of this that we can actually experience? The other thing is, is that I'd really like to hear from someone not involved in the scene, just a regular listener. P. Wretch has been the closest thing to that so far and his posts seem to mainly be ignored. Of course by his own admission he says he has been rather outside the current improv scene. Anyway not to accuse those involved in the scene of anything, but an outsiders perspective is always valuable.

The other point I made which seemed to have been soundly ignored (perhaps just lost in the noise, or put across poorly) was that at least from the evidence we have it seems like this cross fertilization was already going on in the form of the Interlace series. A lot of these same people cited are listed there, interacting with a lot of the Prevost workshop alum. For instance Richard asked "How many people in this thread have heard Paul Abbott's or Daichi Yoshikawa's rough electronics? or Grundik Kasyasnkys for that matter?" Well I've heard Grundik Kasyasnky in duo James Coleman thanks to the Interlace recordings. While having a steady, available venue makes a huge difference ( I can attest to this - the opening of Gallery1412 and then the Chapel Performance Space have made a huge difference here in Seattle) it seems from at least the concert listings that this intermingling had been going on. And on the Interlace site you can hear a lot of them. I should add that I have found a number of recordings there to be quite good, if not radical (also several have been dreadful, but there you go).

So anyway, that's a bit more on what I was trying to say and again sorry for being less then kind about it. I always want more great music and if in the future the current London scene leads to that, well I'll be as excited as anybody. I hope someday to make my way there as well and experience some of it firsthand.

[Richard Pinnell]

secondly, Richard can keep saying the title term is a joke, but clearly that's not the point. the point is that people in London (and Luka) seem to think that there's a new community forming, if not a genuinely new style of music.

Just to clarify again, everyone in this thread that has spent any time in London recently has made it clear right from the outset that there are no genuinely new styles of music forming, that has never been in question. Also, and this may seem like pointless semantics but I actually think this is an important point to be making- Nobody in London has said anything at all in this thread yet. I've had a couple of emails today but it would be interesting to see what Londoners might think in this thread.

as someone who not only runs a label, but also one of the main few worldwide distributors of this music, I'm just trying to figure out what, if anything, is actually going on, who I should be paying attention to, and whether there are recordings I should be distributing that I'm not.

Sorry Mark I know I really should let this drop but I can't allow this to pass without comment. Jon you started the thread asking a question about what Luka, Simon and I might have been referring to when we talked of recent developments in London. Then just three hours later and after few responses you posted and completely dismissed everything mentioned as unimportant, occasionally hyped and even (shock) post-Prevostian. You made it really clear very early in the thread that you had little to no interest. That's fine, you are of course entitled to your opinion. I have to wonder though why a day and four pages later you are still in the thread wondering why people seemed upset by you and suggesting that you only really want to know what is going on, when you have already routinely dismissed it all on page one. Why ask a question you have already answered for yourself? and why not leave the thread to those that might be interested?

[Richard Pinnell]

I probably should just stop while I'm behind, but I feel I should clarify a couple of things.

No, I'm glad you took the time to rewrite your thoughts Robert, it made a big difference.

FWIW I don't really think that the Interlace site is really any kind of barometer for the music we have been discussing here. Very few of the new generation of musicians are represented there and the vast majority of the recordings there are two to three years old. That's not to say there isn't some good music there though, not at all.

[jon abbey]

Jon you started the thread asking a question about what Luka, Simon and I might have been referring to when we talked of recent developments in London. Then just three hours later and after few responses you posted and completely dismissed everything mentioned as unimportant, occasionally hyped and even (shock) post-Prevostian.

yes, Richard, it's an internet thread. I wanted to know what specifically three people were referencing, and after two of those three answered, I then answered in turn. sorry for not waiting for you to get home from work.

You made it really clear very early in the thread that you had little to no interest.

I started the thread, for crying out loud. you, on the other hand, have been condescending since you started posting on this thead, but that's par for the course from you these days.

you have already routinely dismissed it all on page one.

again, I did not do that.

[mudd]

ok, guys. you don't have to have this out publicly. if you have more to address at each other, please do it off the board.

now carry on with the parts of this thread that are on topic, please.

m

[JrF]

I strongly doubt anything currently done by UK musicians would be considered 'new'.

well, no one was saying it was - but also that seems a bit of a massive judgement - especially unless one is actually there seeing / hearing it all.

a global community: yes, & I really don't think there is a new 'London scene' - I think there are a lot of good things going on in London & the rest of the UK which are coming from musicians that think in a global sense & indeed create music that isn't 'London' in that sense. There is an effect that comes from the way venues are, the way audiences are etc & perhaps that influences certain aspects of the music whenever a particular 'buzz' happens.

Someone made the comment about hoping this wasn't turning Oto into a Manchester Free Trade Hall type affair - well, firstly Manchester Free Trade Hall was not the influential event that the punk biographers & ageing punks have made out - but the main point i'd like to make about that is that the reason MFTH is seen by some as an important event is not because it was great music - in fact it has nothing to do with the music, it's because of the fashion movement that it was part of & thankfully most of the players mentioned in this thread have a significantly more interesting & enjoyable appoach to making music that just being part of a fashion or thinking third rate pub rock with a few swear words thrown in is 'enough' (& yes, I was caught up in the new wave movement at the time & I still very occasionally listen to a few of the records I liked back then - some of it is classic rock / pop & a lot of it was really just bad music made for dodgy reasons). Cafe Oto won't ever be a Manchester free trade hall - thankfully.

It's good to see positive things going on. It's good to play at Cafe Oto (& Oto is mentioned because it more or less is THE venue putting this music on in London at the moment) & have folks come up to you genuinely excited by what they've heard & know that they can keep exploring, that for now there are a lot of events happening for them to soak up.

The reason why it's seen as a London scene to some extent is simple: there are very very few places outside of London (& very few in London) that put this music on. Funding is hard & finding places to put creative music on is hard too. Most places want only events that bring in lots of folks to thier bar. The transport system here in the UK is pricey & that means artists can't really afford to travel around & perform for door money etc. Also, it's only really the London scene that gets the coverage. There are things happening elsewhere but it tends (due to the numbers involved) to be more spread out.

but what matters isn't all this talking about it, what matters is just the pleasure & creative excitement that is around at the moment & what's really important about that at the end of the day is the relationships that one makes with other people: the respect for other performers, the interest in what they are doing now & what they might go on to do too.

It's good right now. It's enjoyable. It might last, it might lead to more really good things & it might not. But for now, the uk IS producing music that sits within the best creative music anywhere in the world & indeed is part of this global community that it has always been a very important part of.

[JrF]

I know Jon might think that predictable but i'm afraid I've read his posts in the same way that Richard has & I know lots of other folks do too.

also, it is fair to say that erstwhile isn't a main distributor for this music - it's a distributor for some of it but not a fair bit of it + as an ex distributor myself I think it's a fair statement to say that Jon's stance isn't one of supporting this music in general per say - he chooses which of it to stock (before he gets annoyed with me, this isn't really a critical comment - it's the way distributors work unless they are trying to represent a complete area of music - which is impossible !). I have a bit of an issue with the way he is openly critical of some of the music he stocks though & in terms of this thread I think it's a bit off for him to say he's one of the main distributors & then be so critical of some of it.

Mudd: yes, there is a bit of a huff going on but it seems to be mostly sorting itself out. I think (I might be wrong but hope not) that there has been an openess in the comments & it's good that that can happen. It doesn't feel like anyone is being bullied - which it has at times in the past & it also feels a bit more like certain peoples posts are being taken with a more fitting pinch of salt. So please don't censor this thread just yet. It's clear what's going on & it's just not that stressful, so let people say what they need to. It helps us all understand why people feel the way they do. For example I 'get' where Richard is coming from & I have been able to get a clear view of Jon's attitude (which I don't agree with) but it's good to have a clearer view even when it's one that isn't agreed with.

[jon abbey]

it is fair to say that erstwhile isn't a main distributor for this music

come on now, jez. if you're talking on a worldwide level, that's simply not true. if you're talking about the UK scene under discussion, I distribute Another Timbre, Cathnor, Confront, Adjacent...

I have a bit of an issue with the way he is openly critical of some of the music he stocks though & in terms of this thread I think it's a bit off for him to say he's one of the main distributors & then be so critical of some of it.

yeah, we've had this argument before. I don't really get the connection, but again, I think that educated skepticism is much healthier for the music than blind praise, bordering on PR/hype. if I only distributed the titles I really loved, I wouldn't have much in stock and a lot of labels would have hundreds or thousands of less dollars in sales. for instance, I started stocking Edition Wandelweiser a year or two ago (actually on Richard's impetus, so thanks for that again), and am now as big a distributor as Antoine has, along with Metamkine and Edition RZ (I asked him this question recently out of curiosity). I'm not a fan of most of the EW catalog, but I respect the aesthetic and I'm happy to distribute it for people who are interested.

and, yes, none of this is on topic at all...

[mudd]

jez, posts like that don't help anything. it would be better for everyone if you didn't make them. it's an open challenge on a point i just asked to be put to rest.

so can we stop already?

m