Newlondonwhat?

[lukaz]

David Papapostolou / Daniel Jones / Paul Khimasia Morgan: s/t
(The Slightly Off Kilter Label)

David Papapostolou: electronic devices
Daniel Jones: mixer, turntable, objects
Paul Khimasia Morgan: sampler, wind chimes, objects

Improvisations recorded upon first meeting of DP, DJ & PKM in one pass on Saturday the 19th of January 2008 at MezzalunaStudio, Brighton UK.

[Richard Pinnell]

David Papapostolou / Daniel Jones / Paul Khimasia Morgan: s/t
(The Slightly Off Kilter Label)

David Papapostolou: electronic devices
Daniel Jones: mixer, turntable, objects
Paul Khimasia Morgan: sampler, wind chimes, objects

Improvisations recorded upon first meeting of DP, DJ & PKM in one pass on Saturday the 19th of January 2008 at MezzalunaStudio, Brighton UK.

What did you think of it Luka? I have a copy but haven't got round to it yet. Quite surprised to see this released.

[lukaz]

What did you think of it Luka? I have a copy but haven't got round to it yet. Quite surprised to see this released.

Well after two listen i think it's a solid release that covers a lot of space (for me there is even slight ambient feel to it at some points, which in general doesn't grabb my ears but it worked here at least yesterday before going to sleep) and overall if i might say resemble me of a bit harsher version of 'the style of eai' from KahnMüllerMoslang...gang in recent years. I prefer duo recording thou. I was about to ask you if this is the same stuff you played in Audition last year?

[Richard Pinnell]

I was about to ask you if this is the same stuff you played in Audition last year?

You know I'm not sure, I didn't think we played anything by the trio but to be frank I can't remember. I'll try and listen this evening. I'd say that David and Dan have probably moved on quite a way since that recording was made though, despite it being just over a year old. (maybe Paul too but I know less about him) so hence my surprise to see it come out.

[lukaz]

You know I'm not sure, I didn't think we played anything by the trio but to be frank I can't remember.

Yeah i checked now and i was on a wrong track (it happens a lot if you do 5 things at the same time ) , you and Al played a duo recording by Dan & Paul ... anyway i enjoy lately to trow myself into newlondonwhat? and discovering new voices emerging from familiar and less familiar artists. If everythingh goes as planned i should connect some shitenians w them in August in Cafe Oto and i'll probably be there as well. I don't mind if David & Daniel moved on quite a bit (and you can hear that from this record very clearly) since it is always interesting to hear and learn what was before, in the middle and sometimes even lost in ones creative process ...

[Richard Pinnell]

Heh. Newlondonwhat? Is a great name for the new generation of improvisers coming through. (though two of this trio aren't London based I should add!) I might use that name now!

Would be good to see you in August if you can make it. I've owed you a beer for far too long

[simon reynell]

I second 'Newlondonwhat?' as the best title for the developments within improvised & contemporary music that are developing around Cafe Oto & beyond. It's a really fruitful & exciting period, and for the first time in my life I almost wish I lived in bloody London rather than 200 miles away.

[jon abbey]

I split those last posts into a new thread, because it seemed like it deserved its own topic.

what I'd like to know is more specifically what does this refer to, and which recordings (if any) best represent it to date?

[Daniel Jones]

First time I've actually seen the packaging for this! Haven't even heard it yet! Found out from Mark Wastell that this was being released - hope it sounds okay...?!?!?!

[RFKorp]

well that's bizarre. How exactly does it happen that a trio disc gets released with (at least) one musician unaware?

[mudd]

well the label is slightly off kilter apparently.

m

[Dan Warburton]

..like most labels..

so what constitutes Newlondonwhat? Surely not everything that gets programmed at Café Oto? I've got a very rowdy Alan Wilkinson trio on BoWeavil, which is about a million miles away from what I've heard by the artists mentioned above..

[lukaz]

heh, didn't think of this as a label or a tag at all but Jon if we talk about my interest in it for sure it involves released works (that's becuz this is almost the only way i could get in touch w music) released in recent period by labels as Cathnor, Compost & Height, Adjacent, Another Timbre, Confront, ..., work of some new people that i've come accross like Matt Milton, Patrick Farmer, David Papapostolu, Daniel Jones, Jez Riley French, Dominic Lash, etc ... even works of Lee Pattersson and Ben Drew who haven't been on that many records before and fot better or worse let's say a transition period in the work of Mark Wastell, Matt Davis, Rhodri Davies, Graham Halliwell, ... from what was once called 'newlondonsilence' (in a joke i was reffering to that with nlw?), the wider apperance of the works from Seymour Wright, Sebastian Lexer, ... (who could be loosly connected to Prevost's workshop), composed works by Tim Parkinson, James Saunders, and probably many more ... From an outsider point of view the emergence of Cafe Oto seems of great importance for the scene and it seems that many of (mostly overlapping) aesthetical preferences- (gray area???) are not strictly divided anymore. Maybe The Seen project as described by Mark Wastell is somehow a true reflection of that spirit not merely his own personal artistic vision. Don't know really as always many more questions than answers (as i like it to be)- but things look and sound very exciting and intruiging for me ... And i am aware that a lot of artist are basically not from London, but then again Cafe Oto and some similar places, initiatives, labels, record stores, etc ... are and they do seem cruical for the above mentioned developments ... i am not fan of labeling myself and again didn't won't to put any 'signifier' to it, but if someone see some significance in it or could identify with it than be it ... for example if i see it in let's say The Wire i'll be doing this

[simon reynell]

I agree with Lukaz, who has scooped me to a couple of reference-points but here goes:

I’m not going to be foolish enough to try to define ‘Newlondonwhat?’ in terms of a particular style as there will be more counter-examples than examples of any single thing you pick out. That in itself is partly what’s so interesting and exciting about what’s going on in London at the moment. It is very diverse and non-dogmatic, and it’s growing and changing at a bewildering pace. There are a lot of musicians, a growing audience, a lot of energy and a lot of cross-fertilisation, and the existence of Café Oto as a regular venue is – as Richard Pinnell said recently in his blog – a massive factor in concentrating & catalysing these developments (though there are quite a lot of concerts taking place elsewhere in London too).

The things I pick out below are emphatically not defining features of a new genre, but a couple of tendencies in some of what’s going on that I personally welcome:

As I write I’m listening to a lovely recording from the recent Compost and Height first birthday gig at Café Oto. Patrick Farmer of Compost & Height is one of the more exhilarating and hyperactive sources of energy in London at the moment, and his gig combined group improvisations (acoustic & electronic) with performances of composed works for piano (performed by Tim Parkinson) & a solo performance by Jez riley French that is like a live field recording, if such a thing is possible. For me this diversity, and in particular the interchange between improv and the edges of the contemporary classical world is one of the most exciting things that’s happening. (It is also an explicit focus of Olivier Rodrigues’ excellent ongoing concert series ‘Small But Perfectly Formed’).

I also like the fact that if you look at the Café Oto programme (http://www.cafeoto.co.uk/programme.shtm) there are plenty of examples of young musicians working with older generations of improvisers (e.g. at the forthcoming launch gig for the Sound 323 outlet at Café Oto there is a duo of Mark Wastell & Clive Bell and a trio of Steve Beresford / Max Eastley / Ben Drew, and on 2nd April there are two trios: Dominic Lash / Paul May / John Russell and Clive Bell / Terry Day / Ute Kanngiesser). This openness amongst different generations to play with, respect and learn from each other is exemplary, and the resulting cross-fertilisations help make the emerging musics both unpredictable and fascinating. What Mark Wastell wrote in Richard’s blog about the recent performance by his group The Seen exemplifies a lot of what I find most intriguing: “the group needed a slight risk factor…the musicians come from differing styles and backgrounds, and there was certainly no guarantee it would work….Was it a success or a mess or partly both? I’m not sure either way. Which is the most interesting thing. One thing for sure, it wasn’t Britprov, it wasn’t Noise, it wasn’t Electronica, it wasn’t Reductionist, it wasn’t EAI. It was all of these things and yet not at all.”
Perhaps it was Newlondonwhat?

In a way this cross-fertilisation between generations has been happening around Eddie Prevost’s workshop for years, but until recently a lot of the musicians at the workshop existed in isolation from other London improvisers. That artificial barrier has broken down now, both with new players joining the workshop and with the workshop expanding from its South London base with a regular concert slot at Café Oto.

As I say, it would be stupid to hold up these tendencies as defining features of a new genre. There are lots of other things going on at Café Oto and elsewhere, from noisy Alan Wilkinson disc launches to video art evenings, to electronica gigs, avant-folk concerts etc, but I personally find the developments identified above particularly welcome & exciting. Long live Newlondonwhat?, whatever it is.

[P. Wretch]

From an outsider point of view the emergence of Cafe Oto seems of great importance for the scene and it seems that many of (mostly overlapping) aesthetical preferences- (gray area???) are not strictly divided anymore.

I think that is mostly an illusion. Cafe OTO is just a venue with a fairly open booking policy, and it has 'picked up' various improv nights orphaned by other defunct venues. One could argue that they are trying to promote pop/folk/improv crossover (e.g. the projects of Alex Neilson), an aesthetic shared with the Bo'Weevil label, but I don't know whether that is working in terms of overlapping audiences. Nothing to get extravagantly excited about, surely.

[lukaz]

I think that is mostly an illusion.

Well that's why i wrote 'from an outsider point of view. But on the other hand i was also reffering to an excitement comments about the venue expressed from some participants, both musicians, organizers of events and followers (as Richard Pinnell and Simon above). Also i was reffering to statements that come from people mostly involved in 'improv'. I know personally about very open booking policy of the place (i mean who on earth in London would be prepared to host a day of Shitenian experimental music?). But i am also well aware how one place w it's regular programme (althou it is not the only programme they do) can define it's substance in general public. In Shitenia there was a series of improv gigs called Defonija (now reesthablieshed again w upcoming solo concerts by Marco Cappelli and Manuel Mota) w a bunch of great concerts (from Efzeg, Schnee twice, Butcher & Durrant to free jazz legends, etc ...). I did some work there myself (Jason Kahn solo, Will Guthrie solo, Unami & Mattin, Kurzmann solo, Ielasi/Doneda/Zach, Iealsi solo, Guthrie/Fages/Gross, ...) and hell people start identifying anything weird w term 'Defonija' or 'the music that is happening there' ... and from above Simon's post it is clear also that we cannot talk about 'new' Offsite where the venue did define aslo the aesthetic of music produced there ...

[jon abbey]

well, Luka clearly feels differently, but from my perspective as an outsider, I don't see too much to get excited about as of now. obviously I can't speak to the live scene, just the recorded documents, and I do think there have been some solid releases in the last year or so (Blasen, Terrain, Seymour Wright of Derby are the first to come to mind), but it seems to me (again, from a distance) like things were more exciting when Joel Stern and Anthony Guerra and Mattin lived there a few years back (and Mark Wastell was still playing 'amplified textures', which I thought he was getting pretty great at just before he stopped). even Blasen is pretty directly post-Prevostian to my ears, as I've said before, and I have trouble connecting solo releases (like Seymour Wright of Derby) to the strength of a scene, to me that's about collaborations, local and international.

sorry to be a downer, but I feel like the amount of discussion (sometimes hype) of the London scene consistently outweighs its importance to today's international improv world (a lot of this can be traced to the Wire). to me, the recent Relay comp from the Seoul scene (with well-selected international guests) is more exciting than everything else mentioned in this thread combined. maybe we'll see a similar Cafe Oto comp in a year or two and I'll be able to reevaluate, that would be nice.

[lukaz]

things were more exciting when Joel Stern and Anthony Guerra and Mattin lived there a few years back (and Mark Wastell was still playing 'amplified textures'

agreed that things were exciting then (it is obvious also from the L'Innomable releases), but as you stated to me they are excting also now ...

sorry to be a downer, but I feel like the amount of discussion (sometimes hype) of the London scene consistently outweighs its importance to today's international improv world (a lot of this can be traced to the Wire).

would agree on Wire w you but otherwise we' re here not talking about a hype but about the general excitement amongs the practioners from the very heart of it. And don't get me wrong i don't want to link 'the scene' only to Cafe Oto ...

just got Relay discs yesterday and i agree w you Jon on them. Actually i've been folowing 'Koreans' now for quite a while and i think that they' re one of the most exciting things that happened in recent years

[simon reynell]

There is still relatively little on disc representing the best of what’s happening in London at the moment. And Jon, I think a Café Oto comp would be unlikely to grab you simply because you probably wouldn’t like a lot of what’s going on. Your taste is very focused on one particular area of improvised music, and whilst this has certainly influenced many London players, it is only one part of the mix. (Anyway a Café Oto comp would have to overcome the fact that the Café isn’t a great place for recordings imo)

You’re right to warn against over-hyping London (I think, for example, Berlin is probably home to as many interesting improvisers), but there is an excitement around at the moment because it feels like new things are emerging, and are still at a very fluid stage where they haven’t fossilised into an identifiable style or set of assumptions.

[jon abbey]

Your taste is very focused on one particular area of improvised music

this is a somewhat common misunderstanding of my position, but you only have to look at what I've actually released in the last few years to see that this isn't true. what is true is that the London scene (as of now, in terms of recordings) and my taste don't overlap much.

there is an excitement around at the moment because it feels like new things are emerging, and are still at a very fluid stage where they haven’t fossilised into an identifiable style or set of assumptions.

that's great, but at some point, they need to crystallize into strong statements to matter much outside of their own community. David Lacey and Paul Vogel did that this year with The British Isles, that was an exciting development. I'd like to hear at least a couple more releases along those lines from the London crew before I start getting excited.

also, we've talked about it before, but one place that you and I decidedly differ is in the benefits of cross-fertilization. I think in a macro, worldwide sense, cross-fertilization is essential for any kind of music to stay vibrant for more than a few years. I'm quite proud of getting Keith Rowe and Toshi Nakamura to work together initially, and of introducing Taku Sugimoto to Radu Malfatti's work, as a couple of examples.

but I think sometimes cross-fertilization can be counterproductive, as in your examples of "young musicians working with older generations of improvisers". in most cases, I don't think this helps the younger musicians to find their voices, I think it leads to more of a hodgepodge aesthetic and a lot of pleasant but non-essential music.