Derek Bailey, Highlights?

[jon abbey]

i m no good on bailey's output, i would said Aida really blow me away back in the first listen, an all time master piece on my list. but in 2005 somebody got me to listen to most of his tzadik releases and i was very disappointed.

that's because John Zorn is a dreadful producer, with very few exceptions (I am looking forward to the second Maryanne Amacher disc, just released). you shouldn't let that put you off from the rest of Bailey's catalog.

[Chromosome]

I personally didn't understand all the acclaim for Ballads, to name one high profile one.

Yeah, that was the first Derek Bailey disc I bought and then I sold it almost immediately. That album would be the reason I never looked into his music again [...]

This is where I am right now. I just borrowed Aida from a friend and haven't listened to it yet, though I plan on doing that within the next few days.

[mudd]

ballads is very much an 'aww, derek' album. it's well-executed and light, not the challenging material he made his name with, but for a long-standing fan it's something of an ear-candy type treat.

i can certainly understand people disliking it, but i'm a fan. also, i was at a show he did with susie ibarra at tonic soon after he was gifted the guitar with which those recordings were made. he was really excited about that guitar, apparently that has a lot to do with his willingness to record that material.

m

[Richard Pinnell]

ballads is very much an 'aww, derek' album. it's well-executed and light, not the challenging material he made his name with, but for a long-standing fan it's something of an ear-candy type treat.

Not for this long-standing fan it isn't! For me that one is very much an 'urgh, derek' album. Other than to widen his audience and make a few quid I have no idea why someone with as inventive and challenging a career behind them as Derek had would make an album like that, but I guess we can't all like everything he did.

[Salty Swift]

Moment Precieux (with Braxton)

Actually, I prefer the earlier duos. The edition I have is a double lp on Innercity called Live at Wigmor, though I think ( I think ) this stuff was first released on Incus.

I'd already mentioned the duo with Braxton a while back...an excellent record - one that's been dreadfully overlook.

[mudd]

I have no idea why someone with as inventive and challenging a career behind them as Derek had would make an album like that

the answer to this is almost certainly 'john zorn'.

but i didn't mean to suggest that all long-standing fans should enjoy the ear candy. a lot of candy is far too sweet, and spoils the appetite without actually satisfying anything.

m

[snailed]

ballads is very much an 'aww, derek' album. it's well-executed and light, not the challenging material he made his name with, but for a long-standing fan it's something of an ear-candy type treat.

Not for this long-standing fan it isn't! For me that one is very much an 'urgh, derek' album. Other than to widen his audience and make a few quid I have no idea why someone with as inventive and challenging a career behind them as Derek had would make an album like that, but I guess we can't all like everything he did.

i definitely understand your position richard, but for me, that was exactly what it was: inventive and challenging. rather than what we'd come to expect from a typical "derek bailey" sound, this was a release in which he truly stretched himself, albeit in a more accessible direction. it wasn't challenging in the way that it was a difficult listen, but challenging in the way that it played with our expectations of what we'd come to expect in a bailey record. it's one of my favorites.

[jon abbey]

this was a release in which he truly stretched himself, albeit in a more accessible direction. it wasn't challenging in the way that it was a difficult listen, but challenging in the way that it played with our expectations of what we'd come to expect in a bailey record. it's one of my favorites.

sorry, I don't buy this at all, although there may be a job waiting for you in the obi-writing dept. at Tzadik. if anything, he 'contracted' himself with this record as opposed to 'stretching' himself, I think he could have knocked it out in an hour any time without even thinking much about it. if it helped people check out more challenging music by him or by others, that's always nice, but on its own, I think it's one of the lamest things in his catalog.

[snailed]

this was a release in which he truly stretched himself, albeit in a more accessible direction. it wasn't challenging in the way that it was a difficult listen, but challenging in the way that it played with our expectations of what we'd come to expect in a bailey record. it's one of my favorites.

sorry, I don't buy this at all, although there may be a job waiting for you in the obi-writing dept. at Tzadik. if anything, he 'contracted' himself with this record as opposed to 'stretching' himself, I think he could have knocked it out in an hour any time without even thinking much about it. if it helped people check out more challenging music by him or by others, that's always nice, but on its own, I think it's one of the lamest things in his catalog.

that's fine jon, i wouldn't expect it to be your thing, but i like it even if it does sound lame aesthetically compared to some of his other stuff or not as cool stylistically. some people think that not just going in a straight line forwards is a contraction, or regression. but i don't really have as progressive an outlook as that, i think if an artist wants to go along a side path, check into a more accessible or 'regressive' genre, and it works and they can speak something true, i'm fine with that if it's for the right reasons (though maybe it did earn him new fans and a few quid, i've read a few times he would play this material constantly in private so it must have meant something to him). you're probably right that he could have knocked it out at any hour, but i think that's because he had been playing that material for so long privately.

it honestly reminds me a bit of the stuff philip guston did towards the end of his career, all of a sudden taking a left turn into representation. many people called it a regression, morton feldman dropped his friendship with him, we all know the story, blah blah. but it is a stretch in its own way. i think if he kept repeating himself and making the same sounds which we'd all come to expect from him at the time of that record, it would be a regression, or at least stagnation (something i've seen you complain about in regards to bailey). so i think it's cool he tried something new, whether it is successful or not, i dunno. i like it, but i definitely understand people hating it.

i'm not saying any change is a good change either, i'm just talking about this particular case. part of me liking it probably has to do with the fact that i was just getting into him around this time. also me saying it's one of my favorites should be taken with a grain of salt... i'm not nearly as well versed in bailey as you are, so i can't really put it up against many other records. i imagine if i had been following him for as long as you had it would be a lot more frustrating, but i was just coming to him at that time (i think i saw his 'company' a few months before that came out, and that was my first exposure). so that probably has a lot to do with it. i just think it's such an oddity in his catalog that it at least deserves a look. otherwise we can agree to disagree.

[Richard Pinnell]

i definitely understand your position richard, but for me, that was exactly what it was: inventive and challenging. rather than what we'd come to expect from a typical "derek bailey" sound, this was a release in which he truly stretched himself, albeit in a more accessible direction. it wasn't challenging in the way that it was a difficult listen, but challenging in the way that it played with our expectations of what we'd come to expect in a bailey record. it's one of my favorites.

Sure, I understand what you are saying here, and I'm all for musicians going out of their way to subvert our expectations of them. The end result has to be of interest though, and Ballads just isn't very interesting IMO once you get beyond its initial novelty value. It reminds me a little of the live Schnee album a bit (sorry Jon) in that once the surprise element has passed its just Kurzmann singing a Prince song. I don't want to hear Kurzmann singing Prince songs any more than I want to hear Bailey playing a bunch of jazz standards, simply because I don't find Prince cover versions or jazz standards very interesting. My problem with Ballads is not that it isn't a "normal" Bailey album, but that it is just an album of jazz standards.

[snailed]

Sure, I understand what you are saying here, and I'm all for musicians going out of their way to subvert our expectations of them. The end result has to be of interest though, and Ballads just isn't very interesting IMO once you get beyond its initial novelty value. It reminds me a little of the live Schnee album a bit (sorry Jon) in that once the surprise element has passed its just Kurzmann singing a Prince song. I don't want to hear Kurzmann singing Prince songs any more than I want to hear Bailey playing a bunch of jazz standards, simply because I don't find Prince cover versions or jazz standards very interesting. My problem with Ballads is not that it isn't a "normal" Bailey album, but that it is just an album of jazz standards.

Cool, I hear you and mostly agree (but I liked Schnee live at Erstquake a whole lot, haven't heard the CD enough to comment - but that's a whole different reason and thread)- I agree mostly on the fact that the end result has to be interesting regardless of playing with listener expectations. For me it is, but as I said it mostly has to do with the fact that I was just getting into him around the time of its release. It's not one of my favorite records of all time by any means.

However, I do disagree that it's just an album of jazz standards, as it's quite an unusual one just taken on that level - you still have Bailey doing his thing, but in that framework. Anyone not familiar with his work and expecting a regular album of standards would likely be caught off guard. However to anyone familiar with the music we discuss here or Bailey, I could see it coming off as just as normal as Joe Pass or something.

[jon abbey]

It reminds me a little of the live Schnee album a bit (sorry Jon) in that once the surprise element has passed its just Kurzmann singing a Prince song.

sidetrack, but FWIW, I had no idea this was a Prince cover when I saw it live, or when I listened to it 15-20 times before asking them to release it (I figured it was some German or Austrian poet), that was when they told me. the fact that it's based around Prince lyrics is pretty irrelevant IMO, it's the overarching structure of the piece and the beauty of the music that makes it so successful.

[jon abbey]

my problem with the Bailey record isn't so much that it's an album of standards, it's that it doesn't go far enough in that direction. like I said before, it's just heads with middling Derek playing in between as far as I can tell. I'd probably like it more if it went more towards actual song structures, but as it is, it just feels like watered-down Derek.

[Charon]

I quite like the Ballads album, but then again I quite like jazz standards from time to time
but I think it would have been far more interesting for him to have broken into a standard in the middle of an improvisation rather than doing a whole album of that material

Domestic and Public Pieces is a good one, as of course is Aida, but that's been mentioned, and also 'Playing' with John Stevens which I've just started sinking my teeth into

actually I had a dream about Derek last night.......I got a parcel from him and in it was a guitar, a notebook [paper], and a newspaper, with a classified ad for a group that needed a sopranino sax player. In my dream I took out the notepad and read through it, to find it contained the odd chord progression written out [neatly and in pencil], some notes scribbled here and there but mostly sections of text typed on a typewriter - just stories about people and random bits of information in block capitals. I was about to turn over the last page when I woke up. Weird.

[Dan Warburton]

Other than to widen his audience and make a few quid I have no idea why someone with as inventive and challenging a career behind them as Derek had would make an album like that

$5000 isn't "a few quid", and it would certainly be sufficient motivation for me to release something on Tzadik

[Dan Warburton]

my problem with the Bailey record isn't so much that it's an album of standards, it's that it doesn't go far enough in that direction. like I said before, it's just heads with middling Derek playing in between as far as I can tell. I'd probably like it more if it went more towards actual song structures, but as it is, it just feels like watered-down Derek.

Agreed. If you want to hear an improvising guitarist really exploring a song structure, try Tetuzi Akiyama's Wild Horses.

You no like-a TAFKAP, Richard? Give me Prince over Level 42 any day of the week

[J.F.]

I bought "Ballads" only for its cover art.

It might be more illuminating to find out which Bailey albums people here don't like

Duo & Trio Improvisations
the 1977-duo with Centazzo
Views from six windows (with Christine Jeffrey)
Yankees (with Zorn + Lewis)

among the records I likely wouldn't wish to buy again if my collection got lost in a fire (or something):
Duos for Cello and Guitar (with Holland 71)
Daedal (with Susie Ibarra)
those "Post Improvisation"-duo CDs with Bennink
the duo CDs with Greg Bendian and Henry Kaiser
Bailey/Butcher/Marshall

Another one I do enjoy:
The Advocate (Oxley, 1975... I prefer that to "Soho Suites")

[Alastair]

Agreed. If you want to hear an improvising guitarist really exploring a song structure, try Tetuzi Akiyama's Wild Horses.

Could have sworn we'd played this on audition, but it turns out we haven't. Hmm. Maybe I'll dig it out.

[Alastair]

there may be a job waiting for you in the obi-writing dept. at Tzadik.

[Richard Pinnell]

However, I do disagree that it's just an album of jazz standards, as it's quite an unusual one just taken on that level.

Yes I must agree there, I don't doubt there are many hundreds of jazz standards albums I'd ditch before Derek's. I'd still put the majority of his other releases before Ballads though. Personal foibles I guess.