Thomas Pynchon - "Against the Day"

user_3202 · Post by **user_3202** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:02 am

angrymice wrote:
7:12pm wrote: I'm going to buck convention and say pick up Crying of Lot 49. Pynchon, apparently, hates the book, saying he apparently forgot how to write a novel while writing it, but It's a good introduction to his style and humor in my opinion. If it piques your interest then go ahead right on to Gravity's Rainbow. It's a doesy, and, in my opinion it's third section could be greatly shortened, but it's a good'un.

Definitely start with Crying; it's sort of a nice, elegant little book that does a lot of what his other books do in a lot less space and with a lot less commitment from you, the reader. It's also hilarious.

Dohol · Post by **Dohol** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:28 am

MIchiko was really harsh with it.

But then again, she doesn't really like anything does she?

benjamin · Post by **benjamin** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:03 am

Yeah I read that review. Given her liking Mason and Dixon for its characters portrayed as "full-fledged human beings" and her slaming the characters in Against the Day as "stick" figures, I'm not sure she gets it. Plus, it makes sense, to me at least, that Pynchon would turn to pastiching Pynchon. That said, I haven't read the book. I will, though.

user_1935 · Post by **user_1935** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:11 am

from what i know about Pynchon, I'm rather eager to get to Mason and Dixon myself. It seems wild that he would tackle something like this in his own unique way. I was at the library yesterday and read a couple pages of V, and I'm just curious to see how he writes about the south. also i saw there was a book of his called Slow Learning which was a collection of his earlier writings which none of the bibliographies at the other libraries listed.

faster · Post by **faster** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:15 am

Just to be clear, _Mason & Dixon_ isn't about the south really, but about the dawn of the U.S. and pre-, and even more about a pivot in time, technology, knowledge. And it's a buddy novel hehe. With a teleporting, invisible, possibly omniscient robotic duck.

I'd also be pretty hard-pressed to call _Crying of Lot 49_ "elegant." I think it's pretty sloppy, snotting all off the edges. It's "a fun romp," if a cerebral, flamboyant one. It's also quite a stretch to say it does a lot of what his later books do. I think that's only true very superficially (ie. stylistically). He has only written two "minor"novels (to my knowledge, haven't read the newy), _49 _and _Vineland_; _V_, _GR_, and _M&D_ all very evidently strive for big ideas and approach them in radical and grandiose ways (at times even extravagent, imo). An early book, _49_ is a toe dipper.

That said, I think it's a good way to try his style on for size, just as bibimbap is a good intro to Corean food, or Maguro is a good starter sushi. It's not as threatening as the others, and if you don't like it you probably don't like Pynchon. Which is fine, it's not like dude writes a lot of books or anything.

EDIT:
Oh, and _Slow Learner_ didn't do much for me. It predates his "style," although it does point the way to his interest in vernacular and his dedication to details.

hatta · Post by **hatta** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:23 pm

There are characters and references that connect several of the stories in Slow Learner, Crying of Lot 49, V and Gravity's Rainbow so IMO they are all worth reading and in that order. Gravity's Rainbow is the pinnacle of his career so far and I think a strong case can be made for it being the book of the second half of the Twentieth Century. I also absolutely love Mason & Dixon though GR edges it out. Can't wait for Against the Day - I'm going to hit the bookstores tonight!

And Crying of Lot 49 is totally worth reading for the "eai" jam session bit

potatocircle · Post by **potatocircle** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:47 pm

hatta wrote:Gravity's Rainbow is the pinnacle of his career so far and I think a strong case can be made for it being the book of the second half of the Twentieth Century.

I'll take Gaddis' JR for those top honors myself. riduculously funny, ridiculously bitter - and both in just the right measure. Don't get me wrong - I love Pynchon's far flung imaginative oddities and ambitious story tangles, but gaddis' reality-based extravagances in JR tend to be more fulfilling and resonant, if not as exciting and bedazzling as pynchon.

hatta · Post by **hatta** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:00 pm

I really must get into Gaddis, that's gonna be next after the new Pynchon (though I really must also get back to A la recherche du temps perdu). I have to say though that there is more to just my personal opinion when I think of a books importance - how it has impacted other writers and the culture is a big part of that. Gaddis is certainly well known amongst the lit geeks but how wide an impact has he had?

user_1935 · Post by **user_1935** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:32 pm

hmm, i'm just wondering how somebody can NOT like Pynchon. I got a copy of Against the Day a couple of hours ago, (though I was told it was available yesterday at a very cool little bookstore in town, and it had sold out when i got there earlier this morning)

i've been rereading the first couple of chapters because i wound up in a semi noisy cafe, which definitely distracted me. I mean there are writers who hole themselves up when they write, and then there are writers who like "being alone, together" say with a laptop at a cafe or something. somehow, I believe Mr. Pynchon likes to be alone alone when he writes. There's so much impact on every sentence, and the humor is quite good so far. Plus, the nuance and the details, along with the theme are my cup of tea incredibly.

I guess I shouldn't have been prejudiced in calling Mason and Dixon a book about the south, tho not having read it, i can't be too prejudiced if i assume that it's probably NOT about Michael Richards right?

user_548 · Post by **user_548** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:20 pm

hatta wrote:I really must get into Gaddis, that's gonna be next after the new Pynchon (though I really must also get back to A la recherche du temps perdu). I have to say though that there is more to just my personal opinion when I think of a books importance - how it has impacted other writers and the culture is a big part of that. Gaddis is certainly well known amongst the lit geeks but how wide an impact has he had?

Not really that wide from what I understand, which is very strange to me. As far as I'm concerned, The Recognitions is a far more readable, coherent, and literate version of Gravity's Rainbow. That's not to say that they're linked thematically or plotwise, or even narratively, it's just as far as modern day ridiculously ambitious novels go Gaddis trumps Pynchon as far as I'm concerned. I realize that that's a pretty hardcore statement to make, but it's a personal opinion mostly. I'm sure there's many literature professors who would laugh at such a assertion, but I struggled to get through Gravity's Rainbow and breezed through The Recognitions.

As for, A la recherche du temps perdu, I've only read the first two volumes. In my opinion The 'Overture' of Swann's Way is the most beautiful piece of literature ever.

potatocircle · Post by **potatocircle** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:09 pm

hatta wrote:I really must get into Gaddis, that's gonna be next after the new Pynchon (though I really must also get back to A la recherche du temps perdu). I have to say though that there is more to just my personal opinion when I think of a books importance - how it has impacted other writers and the culture is a big part of that. Gaddis is certainly well known amongst the lit geeks but how wide an impact has he had?

That's an interesting question and one I deifnitely don't know the answer to. But of all the writing produced, I can't say I feel that Pynchoin's influence is very strong as far as what is considered contemporary lit. I actually think he's more of an anomoly than anything else. Despite the fact that there are thousands of punk/ alternative/ art nerds with twisted trumpet tattoos, i don't think his influence on writers and culture is very large. (This could be because I admittedly don't read a lot of contemp. stuff and don't know WTF i'm talking about.) He seems to be someone who people like to name drop rather than explore the impact of his oeuvre.

Though I don't know foster wallace's work at all either (picked up infinite jest many times during boring parties i couldn't leave for one reason or another and never read anything attractive/ intriguing) i've been told he is a pynchonette.

As far as proust, one thing people don't tell you is that you can read the books out of order, and i highly reocmmend it. Cuz going from 1 to 2 to 3 etc. will end up feeling more like homework. feel free to dip in anywhere and make it your own. 5 - the captive is a great dip into proust's idea that the basis of love is jealousy, and someone else's unknown, and dealing with the consequences of that.

and while it's tangential to this discussion, Gass's
The Tunnel makes the best use out of the sonics of words than almost any other book, espcially American ones. Dylan Thomas' Under Milk Wood comes close though, and it's the only thomas i've found to be worth reading, but oh it is.

faster · Post by **faster** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:42 pm

FWIW the influence of Pynchon on a segment of well-respected writers is one of the reasons for his canonization (DFWallace, DeLillo, others).

Pynchon is far more widely taught than Gaddis, which is one metric, but I'm not interested in debating relative merits or whatever. People have affinities.

Lots of people dislike Pynchon because his style is so dominant, just as people dislike Joyce, or Faulkner. Also, Pynchon's endless digressions and tendency to fly into really fantastical sections prevent a lot of people from getting close to his bigger ideas. His style is surely the line in the sand: if you don't like it, he's probably not for you.

I'm not really in a hurry to read the new one. I think it'll be a couple years, since I want some space, then I want to read _M&D_ again.

Anyway, now I'm reading a pretty bad bio of Sam Cooke, called _Dream Boogie_. Book's bad, but his life was interesting, so it's working out ok.

user_548 · Post by **user_548** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:20 pm

I read the first chapter of Against the Day at Borders today and discovered, to my surprise, that I actually really enjoyed the first chapter. Of course, considering the first chapter is, literally, only 1% of the entire book that's probably not much of a sign of anything, but I'm still excited to get a chance to delve into this. That probably won't be for a while though.

Post by **mudd** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:14 am

ok, it's been a few months now. who's read this? what are your thoughts? where do you think it fits in the pynchon 'canon'?

i thought the book was fantastic, but i'm having trouble finger-pointing favorites and complaints. the suggestion, on another board, that ATD, especially the chums of chance segments, fits into the short-lived subgenre of 'steampunk', suprised me with its validity.

and that sentence suprised me with its huh?.

so anyway, thoughts?

m

hatta · Post by **hatta** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:46 pm

Well as mentioned previously I finished reading this a few months back. I loved it all the way through and found it enjoyable, engaging and challenging. I'd rate this as perhaps the most fun Pynchon novel in many ways, even when there is some seriously brutal things going on it never feels oppressive. Its written with a light touch. One thing that struck me while reading this one is that Pynchon adopts elements of a writing style that is appropriate to the time in which he is writing. So Against the Day has the breezy style of those pulp adventure books from the turn of the century, underscored by the Chums of Chance segments.

I've read a decent amount of "Steampunk" and while I can somewhat see what they are saying I disagree. The "genre" (if there was enough of it to even warrant that designation) was pretty much about imagining a different technical development in Victorian times. It was originally directly connected to "cyberpunk" and its hallmark really was that the mechanical computation of the Victorian era had developed to the point that the information revolution occurred at that time. Against the Day OTOH has none of those concerns and the advanced technology the Chums and the inventors acquire/develop is much more akin to what you would find in a parody of the Tom Swift books of the day. Considering that those are the exact type of books that Pynchon is parodying (especially with the CoC) I think it is a mistake to look to a modern literary "trend" as a referent.

Anyway a great book and definitely recommended. I need to reread a lot of Pynchon to really make much of an intelligible claim for its place in the "canon" but as of now, I'd say that Gravity's Rainbow still perches at the top followed by Mason & Dixon with Against the Day rounding out the medal winners. All IMO of course.