NFL 2010

[Mo Noyz]

Chris said they should have started Hanie?

That's a wee bit confusing. Over Collins, yes. But, not over Cutler.

I must be missing something here.

[crawjo]

There's a lot that goes into winning it all. Mediocre QBs aren't one of them. Aside from Dilfer I can't think of another mediocre QB that ever won it all. Especially multiple times.

Whoa, when did I say Roethlisberger was mediocre? He's obviously a very good quarterback. But you said top 3. And look, I'm a Redskins fan. We've won three Super Bowls but we've never had a quarterback (at least not in my lifetime) who was in the elite class of QBs for multiple seasons. Williams got hot in 87, Rypien had one incredible year and a couple other decent ones, but no elite QBs. And right now, the Skins best QB is Rex Grossman. So if I had my pick of any quarterback in the game to plug into a 6-10 team with middling offensive weapons, I'd probably take Roethlisberger sixth, after Manning, after Brady, after Rodgers, after Rivers, and after Brees. That means Roethlisberger is a very good quarterback. Six out of 32 starting QBs in the NFL is really good. But I just don't think he's at that ultra-elite level. I don't measure this by rings, because teams win rings, not individuals. Roethlisberger could win six rings and that alone would not cause me to alter my opinion of him. He's a very good quarterback on a great team.

[Harold Baines]

Chris said they should have started Hanie?

That's a wee bit confusing. Over Collins, yes. But, not over Cutler.

I must be missing something here.

"DuPre fils." My son, the 11 year old. He was trying to be funny, I think.

[crawjo]

Things just went from bad to worse for that cat.

I definitely wouldn't defend the players who have been trashing him because if I got a fucking splinter in my finger I'd take my uniform off and go home and whine the rest of the night. But, a lot of players have played with sprained MCLs before.

From all accounts it was a decision made by the trainers and medical staff to keep him out of the rest of the game. Either way, he's not going to hear the end of this for a long time.

Yeah it's going to get worse for Cutler, but as Surfer pointed out, he was playing awful. If his injury was contributing to his awful play, then yes, the Bears had a better chance to win the game with Hanie. Because for whatever reason, he was just not making the throws.

It's too bad because the Bears got exactly the performance they needed from their defense in order to win the game. In a different set of circumstances Urlacher's pick near the goal line could have completely swung the game around in Chicago's favor.

[jon abbey]

In a different set of circumstances Urlacher's pick near the goal line could have completely swung the game around in Chicago's favor.

yeah, the circumstances where Rodgers didn't make a nice tackle and Urlacher took it to the house.

[Harold Baines]

In a different set of circumstances Urlacher's pick near the goal line could have completely swung the game around in Chicago's favor.

yeah, the circumstances where Rodgers didn't make a nice tackle and Urlacher took it to the house.

Outside of Raji's pick, Rodgers' tackle was the play of the game.

[Captain Hate]

Green Bay also tends to underachieve in the way they play a lot of games too. They started out like a house afire and it seemed like the rout was on only to have them up by only 2 scores despite complete domination. I think it's dumbass coaching but that might not be the whole story (I mean they *are* in the Super Bowl but that they let the Bears stick around as long as they did with a third string QB after Todd Collins stunk up the joint is pretty fucking bad, the Bear's excellent D notwithstanding). Anyway if they pull that shit against the Steelers I don't think a good ending is in their future.

[Mo Noyz]

If his injury was contributing to his awful play, then yes, the Bears had a better chance to win the game with Hanie. Because for whatever reason, he was just not making the throws.

Couldn't agree more.

I almost posted during the game that both teams were going to have to make a decision concerning their starting QBs because Rodgers got hurt pretty bad on that second drive and his footwork went to shit for the next two drives. He was unable to set properly, and it was noticeable.

[Mo Noyz]

"DuPre fils." My son, the 11 year old. He was trying to be funny, I think.

Reading for comprehension, it ain't just for breakfast anymore.

I knew you'd never say anything like that, hence my confusion.

Again,

[Mo Noyz]

He's a very good quarterback on a great team.

Again, so was Montana.

What is the point where a solid QB crosses that threshold of greatness?

It's an honest question, David. There is no set criteria we can refer to.

Let's start here: is Roethlisberger a better QB than Aikmann? Now, here was a pass throwing robot surrounded by more talent than possibly any other QB in history, IMO. Was he great, or a good QB on a great team?

This is why I contend the question about Roethlisberger is a little more complicated than it seems. QBs can be "great" for a number of reasons, IMO.

[crawjo]

He's a very good quarterback on a great team.

Again, so was Montana.

What is the point where a solid QB crosses that threshold of greatness?

It's an honest question, David. There is no set criteria we can refer to.

Let's start here: is Roethlisberger a better QB than Aikmann? Now, here was a pass throwing robot surrounded by more talent than possibly any other QB in history, IMO. Was he great, or a good QB on a great team?

This is why I contend the question about Roethlisberger is a little more complicated than it seems. QBs can be "great" for a number of reasons, IMO.

Well, my impression at the time was that Montana was a great QB on a great team, but I was like 11 years old, so I could be wrong and I could have overestimated him. In my mind, though, which again doesn't count for much because I'm really just a casual fan (I used to be really into the NFL during the Joe Gibbs era in Washington, but since the team has been mediocre for almost 20 years now I just can't get that excited about the NFL anymore), I used to believe that the best QB I'd ever seen was Marino. Then Manning came along and now Manning is the best I've ever seen. Roethlisberger, in my mind, fits somewhere in a class of QBs who fit in well on great teams. Maybe the best comp for him is Phil Simms, who always had the Giants in the hunt but who wasn't in the elite class of QBs, at least I don't think he was. To me, Aikmann was better than Roethlisberger, or at least it seemed that way at the time.

I can't go by Super Bowl rings. I just can't. Jim Plunkett has two more Super Bowl rings than Dan Marino, but that doesn't really mean anything to me.

[crawjo]

In a different set of circumstances Urlacher's pick near the goal line could have completely swung the game around in Chicago's favor.

yeah, the circumstances where Rodgers didn't make a nice tackle and Urlacher took it to the house.

Right, it was a nice play, but a decent offense could have taken the ball right down the field and scored. But with the pathetic Bears offense yesterday, I'm not sure they even got a first down on the subsequent "drive."

[Mo Noyz]

Well, my impression at the time was that Montana was a great QB on a great team, but I was like 11 years old, so I could be wrong and I could have overestimated him. In my mind, though, which again doesn't count for much because I'm really just a casual fan (I used to be really into the NFL during the Joe Gibbs era in Washington, but since the team has been mediocre for almost 20 years now I just can't get that excited about the NFL anymore), I used to believe that the best QB I'd ever seen was Marino. Then Manning came along and now Manning is the best I've ever seen. Roethlisberger, in my mind, fits somewhere in a class of QBs who fit in well on great teams. Maybe the best comp for him is Phil Simms, who always had the Giants in the hunt but who wasn't in the elite class of QBs, at least I don't think he was. To me, Aikmann was better than Roethlisberger, or at least it seemed that way at the time.

I can't go by Super Bowl rings. I just can't. Jim Plunkett has two more Super Bowl rings than Dan Marino, but that doesn't really mean anything to me.

Pretty tough to argue with this logic.

I also think your equation of Roethlisberger=Simms is pretty much spot on. I think the main difference between them is that while Simms was completely immobile and fearless in the pocket, Roethlisberger is highly mobile and fearless in the pocket.

Interesting discussion, though.

And I still say the greatest argument against Schaumannetics is the fact that Dilfer has one more Superbowl ring than Marino.

[crawjo]

Roethlisberger is most impressive to me when he's moving out of the pocket, improvising, finding open receivers. Throwing for it on that final third down play was completely the right call. The safe thing to do of course is to run it and burn the clock some more, but throwing it in that situation is, I think, the smarter call and I wish more teams would do it (or at least more teams with excellent QBs). I feel that too many coaches play it "safe" late in games which leads to giving your opponent more possessions, more yards, and more opportunities than they would have if you just played to win, like the Steelers did yesterday.

I suspect that Roethlisberger could be even better if forced to be, and maybe I do underrate him, but again I've got him sixth out of 32 starting QBs, which isn't exactly bad.

[crawjo]

Interesting discussion, though.

Yeah, it is. I like talking football with you because you have an eye for things, you notice things that I don't notice or understand. I'm kind of a stats guy but those are pretty much worthless in football, which is maybe part of the reason why I have a harder time getting into the game.

One thing about watching these playoff games that has really bothered me is how there can be huge penalties given for acts that have nothing to do with the game itself, if that makes any sense. Here I mean, for instance, the 15 yards docked against the Jets for "roughing the kicker" when a guy who nearly blocked a punt touched a kicker's foot. Why that should be a penalty is beyond me. I also didn't like the penalty given on Julius Peppers when he blew up Aaron Rodgers. It was a helmet to helmet hit, but to me that is kind of inevitable. I mean one guy wearing a helmet is trying to hit and tackle another guy wearing a helmet. Yeah, helmets are going to collide. I also don't like the selective enforcement of the "hitting a defenseless player" rule.

Even where people do violate rules of that nature, I would rather the penalty be something else -- like a penalty box in hockey even -- than fifteen yards, which is a lot of yardage and can completely change the complexion of a drive, and thus, of a game.

[Mo Noyz]

I suspect that Roethlisberger could be even better if forced to be, and maybe I do underrate him, but again I've got him sixth out of 32 starting QBs, which isn't exactly bad.

No, it's not bad at all.

Here's my thing: would you agree that even though that call may have been the "right" call (ballsy as fuck is more like it), do you honestly think the five QBs you have in front of him could have made that play?

Rodgers probably could have, but I don't know that Manning (who is not very mobile, just ultra-savvy) or Rivers could have. Brees might have. Brady, hmmmm...

See? That's the thing. Great for different reasons.

Vick would have made it with his feet and with his arm, but would he have been able to make the read? Not likely, IMO, and I've been higher on Vick than most.

Cappz is right in his assessment, but I think in the grand scheme when you have to consider the bottom line of winning, Roethlisberger is in elite company. Is he Marino or Manning? Hell no. But, what counts more, the record books or the rings?

[Mo Noyz]

Yeah, it is. I like talking football with you because you have an eye for things, you notice things that I don't notice or understand. I'm kind of a stats guy but those are pretty much worthless in football, which is maybe part of the reason why I have a harder time getting into the game.

One thing about watching these playoff games that has really bothered me is how there can be huge penalties given for acts that have nothing to do with the game itself, if that makes any sense. Here I mean, for instance, the 15 yards docked against the Jets for "roughing the kicker" when a guy who nearly blocked a punt touched a kicker's foot. Why that should be a penalty is beyond me. I also didn't like the penalty given on Julius Peppers when he blew up Aaron Rodgers. It was a helmet to helmet hit, but to me that is kind of inevitable. I mean one guy wearing a helmet is trying to hit and tackle another guy wearing a helmet. Yeah, helmets are going to collide. I also don't like the selective enforcement of the "hitting a defenseless player" rule.

Even where people do violate rules of that nature, I would rather the penalty be something else -- like a penalty box in hockey even -- than fifteen yards, which is a lot of yardage and can completely change the complexion of a drive, and thus, of a game.

*and the choir responds*

Amen!

I don't recall who said it, but a former player said earlier this year, "what are they going to lead with, their feet?"

[Captain Hate]

One thing about watching these playoff games that has really bothered me is how there can be huge penalties given for acts that have nothing to do with the game itself, if that makes any sense. Here I mean, for instance, the 15 yards docked against the Jets for "roughing the kicker" when a guy who nearly blocked a punt touched a kicker's foot. Why that should be a penalty is beyond me. I also didn't like the penalty given on Julius Peppers when he blew up Aaron Rodgers. It was a helmet to helmet hit, but to me that is kind of inevitable. I mean one guy wearing a helmet is trying to hit and tackle another guy wearing a helmet. Yeah, helmets are going to collide. I also don't like the selective enforcement of the "hitting a defenseless player" rule.

The roughing the kicker penalty has been cast in stone since I first started watching so, like it or not, it's been part of the game all along unlike nearly every other rule that's been jacked around with by the idiots on the competition committee. Even though Rodgers got murdered on that second play, and I felt bad for him, I just viewed that as the risk a QB puts himself in when he passes and in truth I couldn't blame Peppers for what happened. It's a dangerous part of the game but I wouldn't expect Peppers, or anybody else in his position, to do anything different.

[Enforcer]

Speaking of the "really good QB on a great team," I really feel Brady falls into this category. Besides Manning, I think pretty much all the other top QBs do as well. Rodgers, Rivers and Brees have all played on great teams. Only Manning has won more than he should have with the talent around him.

[Captain Hate]

I agree with Nags in that Manning seems to lift the team more than just go along for the ride; although in the regular season I started to see some of that in Brady until the disasterous Jets game where everything turned to shit (helped in part, of course, by the Jets).