Whenever I improvise a piece, I don't consider time constraints. When a thing comes out, it's usually just as long as it is. I mean, you can make a statement in 30 seconds or 30 minutes or 30 days..
I tend to stray towards the shorter end of the spectrum. I like to condense things.
But, that approach is open to the criticism that the ideas presented are not fully developed.
My problem is how do you expand those kernels, those shorter products of my imagination into something larger and longer..I'm at a loss...
Any ideas?
Duration.
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Dohol
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Duration.
“In a kind of middle-aged crisis, it dawned upon me that there was a possibility that music might not even be an art form.”
Morton Feldman
http://soundcloud.com/doug-holbrook
Morton Feldman
http://soundcloud.com/doug-holbrook
Re: Duration.
I came up against something like this a long time ago, and to get around out it I deliberately challenged myself to play a really long solo improvisation. I set my goal at 70 minutes, set the recording going (so I could listen back to it later) and consciously set about using a few mental techniques to keep ideas going longer, like trying to commit as much of the performance to memory as I could, as I was playing it. All the little motifs and kernels of information were deliberately committed to memory as I was improvising, and then deliberately brought back again later in various configurations - recycled, transformed, played across each other, etc. Anyway, in the end I got there, got my 70-minute solo. After a while of doing that those deliberate mental processes became more and more automatic, so I'm not even aware of using them anymore (not even sure if I still do), but I can now improvise for a long time solo, when the fancy takes.
Last edited by Charon on Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Studious Avoidance - Badass electronic music
Re: Duration.
I sort of had this problem and started working really hard to leave things when i found something I liked. Resisting the urge to touch things or try and move on too quickly. Even if it didn't end up as an interesting piece, it was more about appreciating what was happening and not being eager to move it on. Slowly I found I could lengthen pieces and maintain the structure I had been able to produce over a shorter time period.
Re: Duration.
Playing Pisaro's music over the last few years has really opened my ears to silences (spaces, not playing, etc.) a lot. how about trying to take one of your short ideas and, instead of saying "ok, thats the piece. done." think more in terms of "ok, i played this idea, now i will wait and hear something else to play." think more in terms of extending what came before or adding to what you said before.
barrychabala.com
Re: Duration.
i lose patience with my works if they get to be longer than a certain point, about 10 or 20 minutes. sometimes only 3 minutes. if an improvised recording goes on too long, i'll find a place to cut it and play both parts at the same time.
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simon reynell
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Re: Duration.
Speaking only as a listener:
when I was young I used to think that long pieces had a greater chance of being 'deep' / truly significant. Now I don't believe that at all, and can find no correlation between length and what I do or don't like....
Except that in relation to improvisatioon on disc I think that from 35 to a maximum of about 50 minutes is an optimum length, especially if the instrumentation remains constant. I think you have to work wonders to retain real attention for an improv disc longer than this (which isn't to say it's not possible, but it's rare imo)
when I was young I used to think that long pieces had a greater chance of being 'deep' / truly significant. Now I don't believe that at all, and can find no correlation between length and what I do or don't like....
Except that in relation to improvisatioon on disc I think that from 35 to a maximum of about 50 minutes is an optimum length, especially if the instrumentation remains constant. I think you have to work wonders to retain real attention for an improv disc longer than this (which isn't to say it's not possible, but it's rare imo)
Re: Duration.
heh, pretty much the whole AMM catalog would beg to differ, as well as quite a few of the strongest Ersts.
obviously every project is different, but 35 minutes is almost always too short to make a really strong statement IMO. a lot of projects make sense around 50 minutes, and of course there are tons of 75 minute CDs that should have been chopped way down, but I'd say there are probably more great improv discs from the last 15 years at over 50 minutes than under.
obviously every project is different, but 35 minutes is almost always too short to make a really strong statement IMO. a lot of projects make sense around 50 minutes, and of course there are tons of 75 minute CDs that should have been chopped way down, but I'd say there are probably more great improv discs from the last 15 years at over 50 minutes than under.
Re: Duration.
Most people play too long. It's very, very hard to develop something with the foresight to really work in extended duration. Almost everyone with some experience seems to be able to do 15-25, but long durations are like big groups in the sense that six players is more than twice as complex as three players (think of the number of relationships that can and will arise)--the potential for rhymes and references, setups and follow-throughs is exponential.
You, of all people, should understand
Re: Duration.
yes, exactly, well said.faster wrote:long durations are like big groups in the sense that six players is more than twice as complex as three players (think of the number of relationships that can and will arise)--the potential for rhymes and references, setups and follow-throughs is exponential.
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simon reynell
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Re: Duration.
I wrote: “in relation to improvisation on disc I think that from 35 to a maximum of about 50 minutes is an optimum length, especially if the instrumentation remains constant. I think you have to work wonders to retain real attention for an improv disc longer than this (which isn't to say it's not possible, but it's rare imo)”
Jon Abbey wrote: “heh, pretty much the whole AMM catalog would beg to differ, as well as quite a few of the strongest Ersts. Obviously every project is different, but 35 minutes is almost always too short to make a really strong statement IMO.”
Well I did make clear there were exceptions, and AMM are exceptional. But in the context of a discussion about improvisational practice, they’re probably not a good model for most people to follow in that they only play pieces of around an hour’s length, and only issue discs of complete unedited performances.
As for making a ‘strong statement’, well, putting aside my dislike of the phrase, IMO it’s very unlikely to be a good idea for improvisers to sit down and consciously aspire to create a ‘significant statement’ or great work of art. I reckon most often that’ll be the kiss of death for the music that follows. My advice would be: listen hard, work hard, explore, take some risks, and then see what you’ve got – and if it’s successful you probably won’t have much idea about the duration anyway.
But then I’m not a musician, so that’s probably rubbish advice….
Joe wrote: "Most people play too long. It's very, very hard to develop something with the foresight to really work in extended duration."
I agree with that.
Jon Abbey wrote: “heh, pretty much the whole AMM catalog would beg to differ, as well as quite a few of the strongest Ersts. Obviously every project is different, but 35 minutes is almost always too short to make a really strong statement IMO.”
Well I did make clear there were exceptions, and AMM are exceptional. But in the context of a discussion about improvisational practice, they’re probably not a good model for most people to follow in that they only play pieces of around an hour’s length, and only issue discs of complete unedited performances.
As for making a ‘strong statement’, well, putting aside my dislike of the phrase, IMO it’s very unlikely to be a good idea for improvisers to sit down and consciously aspire to create a ‘significant statement’ or great work of art. I reckon most often that’ll be the kiss of death for the music that follows. My advice would be: listen hard, work hard, explore, take some risks, and then see what you’ve got – and if it’s successful you probably won’t have much idea about the duration anyway.
But then I’m not a musician, so that’s probably rubbish advice….
Joe wrote: "Most people play too long. It's very, very hard to develop something with the foresight to really work in extended duration."
I agree with that.
Re: Duration.
I'm not a musician either, but it really is. my advice would be that the world doesn't need more competent middling music, so try to make a STRONG, SIGNIFICANT STATEMENT or don't even bother. the worst that can happen is you fail, but at least you tried.simon reynell wrote:that’s probably rubbish advice
Re: Duration.
more...
it's important, as always in this music, to separate concerts/playing at home from released material.
for the former, playing longer can help depending on the comfort level of the combo. for instance, the best show MIMEO has ever done or probably will ever do was the 24 hour show in their early years. this is because they were 12 people, almost all with very strong individual concepts and approaches, and a normal 1-2 hour set inevitably resulted in chaos. since everyone knew going into that show that it would be 24 hours, everyone knew they'd get a chance to do pretty much anything they wanted, and thus the pacing was much calmer and remarkably almost the entire show ended up being very successful (it was broken down by them into 1-2 hour segments, some with loose concepts, some with subset groups, some full group improv). but if you juxtaposed any of the group improvs from this show and any of their other group improvs (where that was the whole show), you'd immediately hear the difference and that's all due to duration.
it's also important to distinguish between first-time combos that don't know much about the other people (Company Week, High Zero, etc), first-time combos who are very familiar with the other people's work (this is where I generally prefer to work), and combos who have worked together before in that precise combo. the less familiarity there is, the less likely something is to work right away, but on the flipside, the more familiarity there is, the more likely it is to become rote and predictable (this even happened to AMM in their final years). finding the balance is very tricky but crucial.
making a CD (or LP, or online release) requires a somewhat different way of thinking, as the idea is to best showcase what that project has to convey. one way that duration can help here, especially for groups with less experience working together, is that combos tend to work through the most obvious ideas/approaches first, so in a longer piece, you can often just jettison the first part and focus on the later ones.
as for actual duration of a CD, length is of course very important. each project is different, but just as a fantastic 700 page novel is more satisfying than a fantastic 250 page novel is more satisfying than a fantastic 25 page short story (at least IMO), the same is true for a double CD/single CD/3 inch. ideally, you're creating an entire alternate soundworld/universe, so of course the longer that someone can be immersed in that, the more nuanced it can be.
I do think that most projects are best served by a single CD (generally at least 40 minutes), but out of the 60+ releases I've put out on Erst, the double (and triple in the case of EL005) CDs stand out as many of the strongest statements in the catalog.
it's important, as always in this music, to separate concerts/playing at home from released material.
for the former, playing longer can help depending on the comfort level of the combo. for instance, the best show MIMEO has ever done or probably will ever do was the 24 hour show in their early years. this is because they were 12 people, almost all with very strong individual concepts and approaches, and a normal 1-2 hour set inevitably resulted in chaos. since everyone knew going into that show that it would be 24 hours, everyone knew they'd get a chance to do pretty much anything they wanted, and thus the pacing was much calmer and remarkably almost the entire show ended up being very successful (it was broken down by them into 1-2 hour segments, some with loose concepts, some with subset groups, some full group improv). but if you juxtaposed any of the group improvs from this show and any of their other group improvs (where that was the whole show), you'd immediately hear the difference and that's all due to duration.
it's also important to distinguish between first-time combos that don't know much about the other people (Company Week, High Zero, etc), first-time combos who are very familiar with the other people's work (this is where I generally prefer to work), and combos who have worked together before in that precise combo. the less familiarity there is, the less likely something is to work right away, but on the flipside, the more familiarity there is, the more likely it is to become rote and predictable (this even happened to AMM in their final years). finding the balance is very tricky but crucial.
making a CD (or LP, or online release) requires a somewhat different way of thinking, as the idea is to best showcase what that project has to convey. one way that duration can help here, especially for groups with less experience working together, is that combos tend to work through the most obvious ideas/approaches first, so in a longer piece, you can often just jettison the first part and focus on the later ones.
as for actual duration of a CD, length is of course very important. each project is different, but just as a fantastic 700 page novel is more satisfying than a fantastic 250 page novel is more satisfying than a fantastic 25 page short story (at least IMO), the same is true for a double CD/single CD/3 inch. ideally, you're creating an entire alternate soundworld/universe, so of course the longer that someone can be immersed in that, the more nuanced it can be.
I do think that most projects are best served by a single CD (generally at least 40 minutes), but out of the 60+ releases I've put out on Erst, the double (and triple in the case of EL005) CDs stand out as many of the strongest statements in the catalog.
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Dohol
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Re: Duration.
jon abbey wrote: my advice would be that the world doesn't need more competent middling music, so try to make a STRONG, SIGNIFICANT STATEMENT or don't even bother. the worst that can happen is you fail, but at least you tried.
I don't know about this. There are a lot of great artists who have a history of making strong, significant statements who have also done middling work..
AMM have a history of extraordinary statements, works of astonishing beauty, but then again there is AMM III which was (in my opinion) pretty middling..sorry..
(nothing wrong with middling after all. It's how we all learn.)
Strong, beautiful ( or wonderfully ugly ) statements that can be sustained are fantastic ( more is better after all ) but short beautiful statements shouldn't be devalued either..look at poetry.
“In a kind of middle-aged crisis, it dawned upon me that there was a possibility that music might not even be an art form.”
Morton Feldman
http://soundcloud.com/doug-holbrook
Morton Feldman
http://soundcloud.com/doug-holbrook
Re: Duration.
yes, of course, no one is successful all the time, that doesn't mean you should lower your goals the next time. I think you're misreading my perspective, or I'm not explaining it well enough. I'm just saying 'try to make a strong statement', the emphasis on 'try to'.Dohol wrote:I don't know about this. There are a lot of great artists who have a history of making strong, significant statements who have also done middling work..
AMM have a history of extraordinary statements, works of astonishing beauty, but then again there is AMM III which was (in my opinion) pretty middling..sorry..
also, I drew the distinction later, but my statement applies much more to released material than it does concerts/private recordings, as the way it's put together and presented is crucial.
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Dohol
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Re: Duration.
This does help clarify...also, I drew the distinction later, but my statement applies much more to released material than it does concerts/private recordings, as the way it's put together and presented is crucial.
But I still think bold statements can be distilled..that there is a place for..well..small statements.
“In a kind of middle-aged crisis, it dawned upon me that there was a possibility that music might not even be an art form.”
Morton Feldman
http://soundcloud.com/doug-holbrook
Morton Feldman
http://soundcloud.com/doug-holbrook
Re: Duration.
sure, Will Guthrie-Spear is a perfectly achieved self-contained statement and it's 8:26. that's pretty rare, though.
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Dan Warburton
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Re: Duration.
45 minutes has always seemed about right for me, both for a live set (most festival slots are about this long, or supposed to be) and an album. It's a duration I'm naturally attuned to, being the length of a lesson in school when I was a kid, or of an LP, or - showing yr age here - a side of a C90 cassette. Maybe now that we're more used to CDs 55 - 60 minutes is becoming more natural. But longer doesn't necessarily mean deeper (agree with Simon), as I've said before elsewhere on the subject of Feldman and Lescalleet.
Anyway, if I play longer than 45 minutes in Mulhouse on August 25th, sue me.
Anyway, if I play longer than 45 minutes in Mulhouse on August 25th, sue me.
http://www.paristransatlantic.com
REISSUED! Eric La Casa / Jean-Luc Guionnet / Dan Warburton METRO PRE SAINT GERVAIS
https://swarming.bandcamp.com/album/met ... nt-gervais
REISSUED! Eric La Casa / Jean-Luc Guionnet / Dan Warburton METRO PRE SAINT GERVAIS
https://swarming.bandcamp.com/album/met ... nt-gervais
Re: Duration.
No duration-dogma for me. Christian Wolfarth's first two installments in his Acoustic Solo Percussion series are several minutes of an extremely focused area of drumming per side.
Guthrie's Spike-s, reducing and boiling down even further than the aforementioned, amazing Spear, is 3 minutes per side. Will took at least six months to produce that 7 minutes.
I recall discussing EL005 upon its release at another bbs, a work I came to [serendipitously] following many nights listening through Feldman's SQ2 3-4 times. I stated I didn't really think more about its length than any other release, and a few yamheads let me know they couldn't believe that. Duration isn't a value, considered separately from the other elements of a work.
I don't disagree that, generally, improv CDs are surfeit with filler; as silly as it sounds, I think a lot of musicians figure "what the fuck, the format holds 80 minutes..."
Guthrie's Spike-s, reducing and boiling down even further than the aforementioned, amazing Spear, is 3 minutes per side. Will took at least six months to produce that 7 minutes.
I recall discussing EL005 upon its release at another bbs, a work I came to [serendipitously] following many nights listening through Feldman's SQ2 3-4 times. I stated I didn't really think more about its length than any other release, and a few yamheads let me know they couldn't believe that. Duration isn't a value, considered separately from the other elements of a work.
I don't disagree that, generally, improv CDs are surfeit with filler; as silly as it sounds, I think a lot of musicians figure "what the fuck, the format holds 80 minutes..."
http://crowwithnomouth.wordpress.com/
Experimental music should be something that suggests a way of organizing your thinking, your attitude toward the world, which suggests that the world could be different.
Christian Wolff 2014
Experimental music should be something that suggests a way of organizing your thinking, your attitude toward the world, which suggests that the world could be different.
Christian Wolff 2014
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A Consumer
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Re: Duration.
+1Dan Warburton wrote:45 minutes has always seemed about right for me, both for a live set (most festival slots are about this long, or supposed to be) and an album. It's a duration I'm naturally attuned to, being the length of a lesson in school when I was a kid, or of an LP, or - showing yr age here - a side of a C90 cassette. Maybe now that we're more used to CDs 55 - 60 minutes is becoming more natural. But longer doesn't necessarily mean deeper
Re: Duration.
I'd much rather listen to a short piece that left me wanting more than a long piece that got boring. As long as something's left at the 'right' length then I don't think it matters how long that is.
The OP seems more concerned about how to extend out musical sketches, though, rather than what's the proper length for a piece. I'd agree with an earlier post in that you sometimes just need to leave the music to its own thing, resist the urge to keep changing the music just because.
The OP seems more concerned about how to extend out musical sketches, though, rather than what's the proper length for a piece. I'd agree with an earlier post in that you sometimes just need to leave the music to its own thing, resist the urge to keep changing the music just because.