Max/msp improvising software

[David]

Can you recommend any improvising software based on Max/Msp?
I've heard of Lloopp but I didn't get it to work, and a friend of mine said it wasn't very good. He recommended another program - can't remember it's name though.

[gohleekwang]

MAX/msp is a program, Lloopp is some patches Klaus Filip wrote for MAX/msp.

PD (pure data) is the closer alternative for MAX/ msp.

[Joda]

I've heard of Lloopp but I didn't get it to work, and a friend of mine said it wasn't very good. He recommended another program - can't remember it's name though.

There's a lloopp list for update-information, bug reports and feedback that you can subscribe to on the website:

There is also a lloop list archive that might have some info about making it work. I wouldn't know, as I don't use max/msp, but the creator is a really neat guy and I like a lot of the music I've heard made with lloop. Christoph Kurzmann uses it and I think Fennesz uses it as well, so I'd be surprised if it was the program that 'wasn't very good'.

[David]

MAX/msp is a program, Lloopp is some patches Klaus Filip wrote for MAX/msp

I think that lloopp more is a module to make third party patches compatible.

[(<oo>)]

MAX/msp is a program, Lloopp is some patches Klaus Filip wrote for MAX/msp

a patch is a program too.

I think that lloopp more is a module to make third party patches compatible.

i think visiting its webpage is the best way to find out what lloopp is: http://lloopp.klingt.org/plone/lloopp" onclick= "window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick= "window.open(this.href);return false;.

[flies]

i really hate lloopp's interface. It's exceedingly hard to learn. There are no labels on anything (nearly). That said, it is a very powerful program/thingy. It doesn't work in the way i want it to, so I'm in the process of building my own perform.patch.

Alternatives include audiomulch and bidule, or reaktor. mulch is really great (the metasurface is a wonderful tool!) - it's very limited in comparison to max but that's part of why it's a good tool for making music. I mean, with max you can get so absorbed in making your patch that you never get around to making any sounds.

leafcutter john built a max patch called 'forrester' or something that is a sort of grain-sampler live environment. you might try that out.

[flies]

MAX/msp is a program, Lloopp is some patches Klaus Filip wrote for MAX/msp

I think that lloopp more is a module to make third party patches compatible.

i woudl say lloopp is more like a collection of modules, including synthesis, sampling, effects and control modules, designed to work together. It's built on top of max. It doesn't add capabilities to max per se, it a collection of pre-built tools that work together nicely. It's possible to add your own tools to lloopp, but as I say, learning how this is done ain't easy.

[gohleekwang]

i really hate lloopp's interface. It's exceedingly hard to learn. There are no labels on anything (nearly). That said, it is a very powerful program/thingy. It doesn't work in the way i want it to, so I'm in the process of building my own perform.patch.

did you post this to the lloopp forum? i think they are interest to know this

i m still waiting for Klaus to give me a private lesson

[snailed]

i really hate lloopp's interface. It's exceedingly hard to learn. There are no labels on anything (nearly). That said, it is a very powerful program/thingy. It doesn't work in the way i want it to, so I'm in the process of building my own perform.patch

I think perhaps some tooltips (mouseover on the button to show a dialog box with what each function does) would help a lot. I had the same problem where there are many little buttons and it's easy to forget what does what. However, from the little I've done, it's a very nice patch. Just could be a little easier to learn.

Goh Lee is right, this could probably be useful over at their forum - you should post this over there, flies. I will try and register there when I get the time.

As far as Max/MSP goes, besides an all encompassing solution like lloopp, really the best way to go is to build your own. Download patches from around, gut them, take what you like, take the tutorial patches and gut those, etc. The whole idea behind Max is that you can build and customize your own patch - otherwise you're probably better off using Ableton or Audiomulch or Reaktor. The amount of time it takes in relation to amount of time you get to play can be rather depressing, which is one reason I've been using it less and less (I have to gut my patch and re-do everything, I keep putting it off, and I've been having more fun just playing with cracked electronics and guitar). But it's a powerful tool if you have a clear idea and the time to realize it.

[David]

As far as Max/MSP goes, besides an all encompassing solution like lloopp, really the best way to go is to build your own

As I've understood it, different patches aren't always compatible. Making them compatible seems to be above my abilities...

Although Max/MSP is very hard to learn, what I like about it - and what I think is an pedagogical asset - is that you start from scratch... you get just what you wanted and not a zillion unnecessary possibilities.

[gohleekwang]

Although Max/MSP is very hard to learn, what I like about it - and what I think is an pedagogical asset - is that you start from scratch... you get just what you wanted and not a zillion unnecessary possibilities.

you have any patch to share? i wrote some very simple patches (within 30 days) which i don't mind to share with you if you are interested
pm me.

[David]

you have any patch to share?

ha ha... i'm just a beginner, I've only made one patch - a weird but quite fun 4-osc-feedback-synthesizer. but sure - pm your emailaddress and I'll send it.

[faster]

One danger of Max/MSP--when the only limits are one's imagination, it can quickly become apparent just how limited one's imagination is.

[gohleekwang]

One danger of Max/MSP--when the only limits are one's imagination, it can quickly become apparent just how limited one's imagination is.

i think this apply to any instruments

[barry]

yes, probably about equal to noodling around endlessly on a guitar or something, you can get caught up in endless software design and zero actual music making. ive been learning and using ChucK. the big plus i've found with this is, i was able to write code that got me creating music right from the start. just about everything you do has some musical - or at least "sound" - outcome. the programming is very "direct". the best thing for improvising - you can write code on the fly and modify running code as you play. you might want to check it out.

http://chuck.cs.princeton.edu/" onclick= "window.open(this.href);return false;

[faster]

One danger of Max/MSP--when the only limits are one's imagination, it can quickly become apparent just how limited one's imagination is.

i think this apply to any instruments

Not the way I mean it, no. What I'm saying is that limitations are good for most people, most of the time. They provide a framework in which innovation and ingenuity can find purchase.

Max/MSP is SO open to possibilities and SO flexible that its users really need to have a clear and compelling vision to use it successfully--experimentation is unlikely to lead anywhere (imo, of course, as always).

[kp*]

lloop seems to just be a big patch with subpatchers and 3rd party externals & abstractions. I haven't messed with it much. I have no interest in actually using it, since i prefer to roll my own synth engines and not have to learn someone else's super complex interface (for elements i prolly wont use or need). But after a cursory look lloop strikes me as a very well thought out patch for improvising. Ultimately i am more interested in finding my own idiosyncratic approaches ... but i still have not found a comfortable way to use Max for regular improv work so i am interested at investigating how lloop achieves its modularity, which has always seemed to me to be the key to getting something like this to work spontaneously. I can do set pieces and quasi-improvised works, and fixed media pieces till the cows come home (i have a long background in tape music and software synthesis), but I am still trying to find a way to get it to work for me as part of my rig for live sound. The latency is also always an issue as well. I am curious to know how others work with software tools in a live setting. I resisted Max/MSP for years (various reasons) but recently learned it for a course i taught last term and wrote a crapload of patches using it. The power of its interface elements is really hard to deny and now it can also act as a host for several other synth languages which makes it a compelling choice.

-kp--

[kp*]

yes, probably about equal to noodling around endlessly on a guitar or something, you can get caught up in endless software design and zero actual music making. ive been learning and using ChucK. the big plus i've found with this is, i was able to write code that got me creating music right from the start. just about everything you do has some musical - or at least "sound" - outcome. the programming is very "direct". the best thing for improvising - you can write code on the fly and modify running code as you play. you might want to check it out.

That is a pretty spot on description of ChucK. Isn't there a chuck~ now too? Running chuck inside PD or Max would allow you to leverage all those zexy interface elements and still have the sample level wackiness of chuck. ChucK reminds me a little bit of Lansky's Ein.

[barry]

yes, and here is a great article on that subject -

http://www.cycling74.com/story/2007/3/26/145938/572" onclick= "window.open(this.href);return false;

[apfEID]

max/msp is awesome and the new max/msp 5 is even more so.

I wrestled with max four or five times before it finally clicked but now that it has I've used it an enormous amount.

My recommendation is to run through the first 5 to 8 Max tutorials, then jump right to the MSP tutorials that cover Buffer~ and Groove~ and then learn about Waveform~ (check it's help file.)

That'll get you up to speed on the most important topics: order of operations and how math in max works, and then give you something *very* easy to get quick satisfying results out of, which will make you encouraged and allow you to get into the nitty gritty as fast as possible.

Once you have that stuff down, learn how to use Trigger, Patcher, and abstractions.

also, subscribe to & browse the max list and search it when you have a question, I've had some serious headscratchers answered immediately by a simple max list search.

For my upcoming tour, I've written my own max patch entirely from scratch, uses my Monome64 for control input and cuts up and crossfades between audio buffers, which I then feed out into pedal chains... I have a huge list of features I'm going to add to it, but even in it's simplest state (say, 4 hours into patching it), I got release-worthy results out of it. I'd estimate that I'm now 30 hours into patching it, four major revisions, in 2 weeks of working on it. Much of that time was spent refining my knowledge of Max (learning about abstractions in particular), and has been a tremendous amount of fun and very satisfying.