Rivette side-track about sexism in cinema

[j-p]

Seems a bit unfair to put off seeing any of Rivette’s films based on a few comments he made in an interview, on top of that one that’s been translated from French to English (assuming you read it in English). Perhaps he just really dislikes Winslet, although I agree that particular remark does come off as rude and crude.

In any case it’s refreshing at least to hear a director who is willing to speak his mind about films he enjoys (and doesn’t enjoy) instead of treading delicately and carefully, afraid to step on anyone’s toes (the interview appears in full here: http://archive.sensesofcinema.com/conte ... vette.html).

I absolutely adore Rohmer, Rivette and Godard (in that order) – so I felt compelled to come to his defence here.

[ttg]

i haven't put off seeing his films, just haven't actively sought them out.

l'actrice est épouvantable, irregardable, c'est la fille la plus débandante qu'on ait vue sur un écran depuis longtemps.

is the original any better?

The tone seems worse: 'épouvantable, irregardable'.

Pax

[Dan Warburton]

what Jacques specifically said was:

the actress [Winslet--he doesn't even use her name!] is awful, unwatchable, the most slovenly girl to appear on the screen in a long, long time.

what kind of sexist fairy tale world does he live in?

Sexist? How so? For saying an actress is awful and unwatchable? Given Rivette's affectionate portrayal of women throughout his oeuvre - I think I can say that based on the ones I've seen, but also from reading what our man Ed Howard and others have written about the ones I haven't - I'd say that's about the last adjective I'd use. You earlier described someone else as an "asshole" and a "moron".. what does that make you? I can list plenty of actresses I'd describe as awful and unwatchable - in fact, I think I will: Sandra Bullock, Sigourney Weaver, Angelina Jolie, Isabelle Adjani, Joan Crawford, Sofia Coppola, Solveig Dammartin, Elisabeth Taylor (Who's Afraid Of Virginia Woolf excepted), Julia Roberts (Eric Brockovitch excepted, and even then I'm not sure), Jennifer Aniston, Catherine Zeta Jones, Audrey Hepburn, Shirley MacLaine, Hilary Swank - I don't consider that sexist. C'mon LG, go watch a Rivette or two and report back.

[ttg]

Sexist? How so? For saying an actress is awful and unwatchable? Given Rivette's affectionate portrayal of women throughout his oeuvre - I think I can say that based on the ones I've seen, but also from reading what our man Ed Howard and others have written about the ones I haven't - I'd say that's about the last adjective I'd use. You earlier described someone else as an "asshole" and a "moron".. what does that make you? I can list plenty of actresses I'd describe as awful and unwatchable - in fact, I think I will: Sandra Bullock, Sigourney Weaver, Angelina Jolie, Isabelle Adjani, Joan Crawford, Sofia Coppola, Solveig Dammartin, Elisabeth Taylor (Who's Afraid Of Virginia Woolf excepted), Julia Roberts (Eric Brockovitch excepted, and even then I'm not sure), Jennifer Aniston, Catherine Zeta Jones, Audrey Hepburn, Shirley MacLaine, Hilary Swank - I don't consider that sexist. C'mon LG, go watch a Rivette or two and report back.

Now, I'm not terribly interested in Kate Winslet.

That was a particularly harsh quote.

He calls her a 'girl', for one: 'the most slovenly girl'.

Most of the women I know do not like being referred to as 'a girl'.

I dig, that might be a more common way to refer to women in France.
She was 23 at the time of the article.

La Belle Noiseuse is also, arguably, extremely sexist.
The way he uses Emmanuelle Béart is pretty uncomfortable and objectifying.
Not to mention the relationship between Édouard and Liz.
Women should just sacrifice themselves to abusive men, for art!

'You earlier described someone else as an "asshole" and a "moron".. what does that make you?' Ad Hominem and a red herring.

That's a nice list of mediocre to terrible actors.

Pax

[ttg]

Given Rivette's affectionate portrayal of women throughout his oeuvre - I think I can say that based on the ones I've seen, but also from reading what our man Ed Howard and others have written about the ones I haven't - I'd say that's about the last adjective I'd use.

Can you link some?

This: http://www.sensesofcinema.com/2003/grea ... s/rivette/ was an unimpressive, superficial analysis.

Pax

[Dan Warburton]

Most of the women I know do not like being referred to as 'a girl'.
I dig, that might be a more common way to refer to women in France.

It's not at all disrespectful. It depends how it's said, and who says it. Like asshole and moron, it seems.

La Belle Noiseuse is also, arguably, extremely sexist.

I'd prefer to go and watch it first before reading any more of this politically correct nonsense. "Sexist" must be one of the most misused words in the English language, after "fascist." Start bandying it about wildly and you can consign a huge number of poets, playwrights, novelists, artists, composers, filmmakers, sculptors and crrrrrrritics to the trash can. You seem to be an expert on everything you touch, ttg - why don't you link us to a piece of film or music criticism / philosophy you find worthy of our attention? And send me a list of non-sexist films I can enjoy while you're at it.

[ttg]

Most of the women I know do not like being referred to as 'a girl'.
I dig, that might be a more common way to refer to women in France.

It's not at all disrespectful. It depends how it's said, and who says it. Like asshole and moron, it seems.

La Belle Noiseuse is also, arguably, extremely sexist.

I'd prefer to go and watch it first before reading any more of this politically correct nonsense. "Sexist" must be one of the most misused words in the English language, after "fascist." Start bandying it about wildly and you can consign a huge number of poets, playwrights, novelists, artists, composers, filmmakers, sculptors and crrrrrrritics to the trash can. You seem to be an expert on everything you touch, ttg - why don't you link us to a piece of film or music criticism / philosophy you find worthy of our attention? And send me a list of non-sexist films I can enjoy while you're at it.

So, you are arguing against the sexism of a film you haven't seen?

I said it was 'arguably, extremely sexist.'

Not that I personally think the film is sexist over all.

Like 'racism' (A word I don't like; there is biologically only one human race. Ethnicism is more accurate.) it is important to point out, even if it's only slight sexist, so as to root it out of human behavior. The same could be said of fascism.

If I seem to be an expert on everything I touch, might it be because I speak only on topics about which I can speak with confidence?
Please, make some kind of logically valid argument on the subject that I can respond to. Enough red herrings.

And I can't link you to a piece, because I'm old fashioned and do 98% of my reading from paper.
I have, however, cited authors in my posts.

Pax

[ttg]

While we're on the subject, Mark, would you do us all - and Jacques Rivette in particular - a favour by splitting these last few comments off into a new thread, called Sexism in Cinema or something (I could suggest other titles but they'd find themselves shuttled off to the DLO in less time than it takes to say "Celine et Julie vont au bateau"

Until the string of red herrings, it was a discussion about Jacques Rivette.

I did, in fact, discuss La Belle Noiseuse. As I have seen it and have formed opinions on it.

Pax

[leroysghost]

Sexist? How so? For saying an actress is awful and unwatchable?

no, for saying she is awful and unwatchable because of her looks. Leo DiCaprio give an equally awful and unwatchable performance in Titanic, but by the same logic his well groomed twinkishness must make it okay.

watching Rivette films and listing actresses i find unattractive isn't going to change what he said (and if débandante means what i think it means the translation was a kind one).

Rivette calls Speilberg an asshole when he talks about Titanic, what does that make him?

[ttg]

Sexist? How so? For saying an actress is awful and unwatchable?

no, for saying she is awful and unwatchable because of her looks. Leo DiCaprio give an equally awful and unwatchable performance in Titanic, but by the same logic his well groomed twinkishness must make it okay.

watching Rivette films and listing actresses i find unattractive isn't going to change what he said (and if débandante means what i think it means the translation was a kind one).

Word.

'débander- v. vulgaire/vulgar- lose one's hard-on' - a possible translation of the infinitive.

Pax

[Dan Warburton]

So, you are arguing against the sexism of a film you haven't seen?

Yes I am, because I wouldn't describe any of the Rivette films I've seen or anything I've read of him or by him as sexist.

I said it was 'arguably, extremely sexist.'

So are YOU arguing that position? You seemed to imply as much from your previous post; now you seem to be hedging your bets.

Please, make some kind of logically valid argument on the subject that I can respond to. Enough red herrings

It's not a red herring, I'm calling you (you plural) out on what you wrote in reaction to a specific interview which I did not find in the least sexist.

[ttg]

Here's a sweeping generalization:

ALL FEMALE TROPES IN CINEMA ARE TO SOME EXTENT SEXIST.

I'm not trolling.

I do think that to a point this can be argued.

Pax

[ttg]

If I am going to have an entire, on-topic post removed; could the 'calling out' also be excised?

I mean, I responded to it, that was all.

Wow.

Pax

[ttg]

So, you are arguing against the sexism of a film you haven't seen?

Yes I am, because I wouldn't describe any of the Rivette films I've seen or anything I've read of him or by him as sexist.

I said it was 'arguably, extremely sexist.'

So are YOU arguing that position? You seemed to imply as much from your previous post; now you seem to be hedging your bets.

Please, make some kind of logically valid argument on the subject that I can respond to. Enough red herrings

It's not a red herring, I'm calling you (you plural) out on what you wrote in reaction to a specific interview which I did not find in the least sexist.

I replied. It got deleted.

We made our points already. One can read them.

It wasn't rude. Je ne sais pas. C'est la vie.

Pax

[ttg]

I sure wish we could talk about sexist elements in the films of Jacques Rivette.

Too much testosterone.

Pax

N.b. I knew about the tyranny when I started posting. Just sad really. This will get deleted too.

[ttg]

Sexist? How so?

'He calls her a 'girl', for one: 'the most slovenly girl'.

Most of the women I know do not like being referred to as 'a girl'.

I dig, that might be a more common way to refer to women in France.
She was 23 at the time of the article.'

*I'll add, just because sexism exists in the French language doesn't make it OK. English has these artifacts, too; e.g. I try and avoid gender specific pronouns unless speaking about a specific person.*

'...for saying she is awful and unwatchable because of her looks. Leo DiCaprio give an equally awful and unwatchable performance in Titanic, but by the same logic his well groomed twinkishness must make it okay.

watching Rivette films and listing actresses i find unattractive isn't going to change what he said (and if débandante means what i think it means the translation was a kind one).'

"'débander- v. vulgaire/vulgar- lose one's hard-on' - a possible translation of the infinitive."

'La Belle Noiseuse is also, arguably, extremely sexist.
The way he uses Emmanuelle Béart is pretty uncomfortable and objectifying.
Not to mention the relationship between Édouard and Liz.
Women should just sacrifice themselves to abusive men, for art!'

A number of arguments all in one place, so they can be clearly seen.

Sounds sexist to me.

Pax

N.b. I do wish this was in the Jacques Rivette thread; it pertains particularly to the man and his work. It contributes to useful criticism.

[surfer]

In the spirit of full transparency, I split the thread out as per Dan's request, as well as deleting his two posts, again per his request. I havent done any other "moderating" or deleting of posts. I generally do very little if any. I was barely even following that Rivette thread tbh. I dont find anything in this new thread unwarranted (ie personal attacks), so we'll just leave as is right now, nevertheless I'm sure Mark would appreciate it of all concerned parties would "chill".

[ttg]

In the spirit of full transparency, I split the thread out as per Dan's request, as well as deleting his two posts, again per his request. I havent done any other "moderating" or deleting of posts. I generally do very little if any. I was barely even following that Rivette thread tbh. I dont find anything in this new thread unwarranted (ie personal attacks), so we'll just leave as is right now, nevertheless I'm sure Mark would appreciate it of all concerned parties would "chill".

Agreed.

I dunno what happened to the post then and I apologise for my hasty retort.

Technology...

Pax

[surfer]

In the spirit of full transparency, I split the thread out as per Dan's request, as well as deleting his two posts, again per his request. I havent done any other "moderating" or deleting of posts. I generally do very little if any. I was barely even following that Rivette thread tbh. I dont find anything in this new thread unwarranted (ie personal attacks), so we'll just leave as is right now, nevertheless I'm sure Mark would appreciate it of all concerned parties would "chill".

Agreed.

I dunno what happened to the post then and I apologise for my hasty retort.

Technology...

Pax

Mark (mudd) may have deleted it, I dont know. I just agreed to moderate this forum to help lighten his workload.

[mudd]

moderator log doesn't think that post existed, maybe it got lagged out of existence. i didn't delete anything nor did anyone else delete your posts (not even yourself, in case you were thinking some sort of accident). i was going to do exactly what surfer did when i got off work.

in any case i think we should use this thread according to its topic, and not tie up too closely to the rivette thread. it's a topic which has been broached before and abandoned, let's make the best of it.

m