individual music development within communities

[jon abbey]

people develop their music when there is opportunity in a nice community, usually when there's some kind of audience.

this is a pretty broad statement that seems logically obvious, but I'm not sure it's very accurate. I don't think this is the thread to do it in, but it might make for an interesting discussion elsewhere.

[Dustin Hurt]

people develop their music when there is opportunity in a nice community, usually when there's some kind of audience.

this is a pretty broad statement that seems logically obvious, but I'm not sure it's very accurate. I don't think this is the thread to do it in, but it might make for an interesting discussion elsewhere.

i'd say what jesse says is true - probably one of many ways things can develop for a musician - but having a community certainly helps - especially since most of us are faced with numerous and constant artistic, financial, and everyday obstacles - the sense of common purpose goes a long way - especially in a young musician - to overcome the early stages of development - and to be able to be in a position to develop into an artist capable of making a more substantial contribution.

and of course - if there isnt a constant 'farm team' for this music - a system to bring up the new talent - any hope of this music continuing will be quickly begin to fall away.

i'm sure there are other ways someone can 'get good' - but this is a good one...

[JrF]

indeed & as has been said elsewhere one of the best things about this very broad and disperate community (ie. folks interested in 'other' musics) is that it can be very positive but also retain a rigorous edge.

[jon abbey]

ok, so I split this off to a new topic with an unwieldy title...

it's in my nature to question statements that everyone accepts as conventional wisdom, and here's one that seems obviously true on the surface. but after Jesse made the above passing comment, I started thinking about it, and I'm really not sure it holds that much truth, at least within our music. I don't think the Tokyo scene when it began had much of an audience, at Bar Aoyama or Off Site, and I know there's never been much of an audience for this music in Vienna. plenty of the most interesting musicians work in what might as well be hermetic isolation, and I really can't think of too many interesting voices who have actually emerged from the kind of more active communities you're talking about.

so if you held a gun to my head right now, after I've been thinking about it for a brief period of time, and made me say whether local communities helped or hindered the development of exciting new voices, I seriously might have to say 'hindered'. but the idea of this thread is to examine the topic more specifically, hopefully without tempers being raised, and maybe I'll change my opinion.

[jon abbey]

some examples of artists who have developed largely in isolation, or at least not within any local, vibrant scene: Ami Yoshida, Graham Lambkin, Jason Lescalleet, Marcus Schmickler, Pita, Kevin Drumm, Joe Colley, Giuseppe Ielasi, Tim Barnes, Cor Fuhler (his more EAI-end anyway).

[Jason Brogan]

Is the community being discussed one of like-minded others (perhaps working within the same or similar areas of music) or one that is generally supportive of (contemporary) art?

[Richard Pinnell]

A vibrant musical community does not necessarily involve large or regular audiences. Although related I don't think they mean the same thing, and I would not apply the same degree of importance to them. The London community discussed above in fact has grown primarily without any audiences at all, rather the community mentioned here (and I should stress this is just one small part of improv in London right now) grew and developed through a private workshop.

Indeed there was very little audience in the early days of the Tokyo scene (not sure there is that much of one now either) but there was a very strong sense of community as captured on those early compilations, centred around one or two venues, involving a lot of musicians of a similar age that played regularly together. That is a community, and if you ask me as good an example of a successful one as there could be.

If I really think about it I am hard pressed to think of a single musician I like who has not had their roots in some kind of musical community at some point.

[jon abbey]

Jason:

I mean, it's open to what you want to talk about. I'm thinking more about music specifically, that's where my knowledge primarily lies, and that's what Jesse and Dustin are referring to above, I think.

also, what I do believe in, as I've said before, is a global community in this music, as opposed to local ones (which also are important, even crucial, but which I'm not sure really lead to strong individual development as often as one would think).

[Joda]

I don't think the Tokyo scene when it began had much of an audience, at Bar Aoyama or Off Site, and I know there's never been much of an audience for this music in Vienna.

Not to comment directly on the relationship between audience and music of interest, but as one who's been actively involved in organizing concerts for years, I've personally never found that the audience in my part of the world has gained any noticeable momentum. It might be nice, but there is no 'scene' for this kind of music where I live. Nonetheless, concerts take place, local players have come out of the woodwork, and I've made countless beneficial connections with players from other parts of the world (with some effort).

It's been apparent to me for some time that there isn't a dense enough population to generate a local interest in this music in my part of the world, perhaps in some, but nonetheless I see community interaction taking place on a global scale as being vital to the development of any sort of longstanding 'scene' within this music.

I think Jon hit the nail on the head in the newlondonwhatever thread with this statement:

I (and Keith) also believe very strongly in 'communitarianism', but our community is a global one, as much as possible. if Keith's strongest collaborators are primarily Japanese (Toshi and Sachiko), if some of Radu Malfatti's are (Sugimoto and Unami), that's extremely healthy for the long term development of this music. one reason that most genres tend to end their creative peak relatively quickly (talking historical now) is that most genres have coalesced from a group based in one geographic area, and those tend to burn out pretty quickly.

[Jesse]

also, what I do believe in, as I've said before, is a global community in this music, as opposed to local ones (which also are important, even crucial, but which I'm not sure really lead to strong individual development as often as one would think).

I'm trying to reconcile this perspective with your long-held opinion that the Tokyo crew infused global improv (primarily European players) with elements/approaches essential to what is now called EAI. In other words, what did the Tokyo crew offer as infusion if not a sensibility they had been developing in venues, as Richard points out, like Off Site, etc.?
It seems to me there is an interaction/interdependency between the locally fomented and the global collisions/occasions.
This might well be my confusion about your perspective, Jon.

[howsthatsound]

yeah, i think size needs to be at least somewhat defined here. in philadelphia, when i go to a bowerbird or PSF show (those are series for those not from the area), there are about 20 people tops. of that i'd say a third to a half, are other musicians from that "scene", and the rest are their girlfriends, friends etc, and a mix of newcomers who either came out to see a specific player or style (noise), or are just checking out something they read about in a local paper. i personally know maybe 6 or so of the other musicians/organizers, and i can count on seeing them at almost every show. most of the rest of the populace attends too infrequently for me to track. is this the sort of thing we are calling a community? (not making a judgment call myself here, to be clear)

[Richard Pinnell]

I think Jon hit the nail on the head in the newlondonwhatever thread with this statement:

I (and Keith) also believe very strongly in 'communitarianism', but our community is a global one, as much as possible. if Keith's strongest collaborators are primarily Japanese (Toshi and Sachiko), if some of Radu Malfatti's are (Sugimoto and Unami), that's extremely healthy for the long term development of this music. one reason that most genres tend to end their creative peak relatively quickly (talking historical now) is that most genres have coalesced from a group based in one geographic area, and those tend to burn out pretty quickly.

This is all obviously true, and the development of a global community that overlaps with the many local communities is one of the most exciting leaps forward in the music of the last ten years. However every single one of the names in that quote above at some point developed through a local community. That they are now in the privileged position to be able to play on a global scale is besides the point.

If I can make an even wider statement I would say that improvised music as we know it today could not have existed without its development through local communities.

[Joda]

If I can make an even wider statement I would say that improvised music as we know it today could not have existed without its development through local communities.

Just to be clear, I am not speaking against the development of a local scene, I was more trying to say that with or without local support of audience and community that this music can still thrive, especially due to the fact that there is community interaction on a global scale.

[Jason Brogan]

I agree completely with the necessity for a global community in this music. I think this kind of internationalist position should always be maintained.

My recent experience in Charleston, South Carolina was interesting. The community there is generally very supportive of the fine arts—there is a major annual international festival that has showcased Philip Glass, Bang on a Can (and related) musicians, Gerry Hemingway and Morton Feldman (there was a performance of For Philip Guston and Stockhausen premiere last year).

That said, there was very little interest in anything beyond Bang on a Can and so my own creative development was far more influenced by interaction with people outside the community (and even outside the US).

[jon abbey]

Indeed there was very little audience in the early days of the Tokyo scene (not sure there is that much of one now either) but there was a very strong sense of community as captured on those early compilations, centred around one or two venues, involving a lot of musicians of a similar age that played regularly together. That is a community, and if you ask me as good an example of a successful one as there could be.

yeah, I just question how that holds up when analyzed a bit more closely and specifically in the context of this discussion, especially the 'local' component. I wasn't there at the time, but I'll take a shot at it:

Taku Sugimoto: the one who was really the main force behind this new 'style' of music, he has always developed on his own, without much influence from anyone, at least until he met Radu a few years later.

Otomo Yoshihide: already very well known and established, he has said that he changed his style to a more minimal, 'onkyo' one after seeing Martin Tetreault. I also think he's been massively influenced by Sachiko, but I don't think that was the case in his formative years.

Sachiko M: such a strong personality, I'm not sure she's ever been especially influenced by anyone, even Otomo.

Ami Yoshida: you can hear her work as a teenager, she's never been influenced by anyone really IMO, just refined her own approach as she's gotten older.

Toshi Nakamura: I'm not sure about Toshi. I'd say on one hand all of the playing in different situations probably helped him, but I also think he's developed quite a bit more via his long-term international relationships as opposed to his local ones.

Tetuzi Akiyama: he's worked in so many styles, it's hard to say, but I think it is certainly true that he was influenced by Sugimoto early on. but you could maybe make an argument that this delayed him from developing his own voice more than anything.

so, as this relates to Jesse's original statement, I don't really see it.

[Richard Pinnell]

If I can make an even wider statement I would say that improvised music as we know it today could not have existed without its development through local communities.

Just to be clear, I am not speaking against the development of a local scene, I was more trying to say that with or without local support of audience and community that this music can still thrive, especially due to the fact that there is community interaction on a global scale.

Yeah, as I said I think audience is a different matter altogether. I imagine that in this day and age it is possible to develop as you have done without local connections, because communication is so much easier, but unless you can find the funding few people will get to play on a global scale. I just struggle to think of many examples, and where I can they tend to be more related to composition than improvisation. Unfortunately I don't know your music Joda, which I should correct soon I know.

[jon abbey]

also, what I do believe in, as I've said before, is a global community in this music, as opposed to local ones (which also are important, even crucial, but which I'm not sure really lead to strong individual development as often as one would think).

I'm trying to reconcile this perspective with your long-held opinion that the Tokyo crew infused global improv (primarily European players) with elements/approaches essential to what is now called EAI. In other words, what did the Tokyo crew offer as infusion if not a sensibility they had been developing in venues, as Richard points out, like Off Site, etc.?
It seems to me there is an interaction/interdependency between the locally fomented and the global collisions/occasions.
This might well be my confusion about your perspective, Jon.

yeah, that's a fair question, and these are issues I'm trying to figure out for myself exactly where I stand on.

what I'd say is that I'm not sure how much the Tokyo crew really developed because of their interactions amongst each other, and how much of it was a handful of strong, already largely formed musical personalities who happened to be in the same city at the same time and so ended up working together. my previous post goes into more depth on this.

[Richard Pinnell]

Indeed there was very little audience in the early days of the Tokyo scene (not sure there is that much of one now either) but there was a very strong sense of community as captured on those early compilations, centred around one or two venues, involving a lot of musicians of a similar age that played regularly together. That is a community, and if you ask me as good an example of a successful one as there could be.

yeah, I just question how that holds up when analyzed a bit more closely and specifically in the context of this discussion, especially the 'local' component. I wasn't there at the time, but I'll take a shot at it:

Taku Sugimoto: the one who was really the main force behind this new 'style' of music, he has always developed on his own, without much influence from anyone, at least until he met Radu a few years later.

Otomo Yoshihide: already very well known and established, he has said that he changed his style to a more minimal, 'onkyo' one after seeing Martin Tetreault. I also think he's been massively influenced by Sachiko, but I don't think that was the case in his formative years.

Sachiko M: such a strong personality, I'm not sure she's ever been especially influenced by anyone, even Otomo.

Ami Yoshida: you can hear her work as a teenager, she's never been influenced by anyone really IMO, just refined her own approach as she's gotten older.

Toshi Nakamura: I'm not sure about Toshi. I'd say on one hand all of the playing in different situations probably helped him, but I also think he's developed quite a bit more via his long-term international relationships as opposed to his local ones.

Tetuzi Akiyama: he's worked in so many styles, it's hard to say, but I think it is certainly true that he was influenced by Sugimoto early on. but you could maybe make an argument that this delayed him from developing his own voice more than anything.

so, as this relates to Jesse's original statement, I don't really see it.

I could break down any established community of players like that though. Derek Bailey was his own man and wasn't changed by others, Mark Wastell plays in many styles and developed his own voice, Will Guthrie sounded like no one I knew and yet played regularly with Sussmann, Earle and co... The point is that none of these, and none of the Japanese players you mention above grew as musicians, learnt about themselves, or went at least some way to finding their "voice" in isolation playing alone. They did it alongside others, and I just can't accept that any of them did not take something from that experience.

[Chromosome]

This is all obviously true, and the development of a global community that overlaps with the many local communities is one of the most exciting leaps forward in the music of the last ten years. However every single one of the names in that quote above at some point developed through a local community. That they are now in the privileged position to be able to play on a global scale is besides the point.

If I can make an even wider statement I would say that improvised music as we know it today could not have existed without its development through local communities.

Yeah, I can't quite call up Toshi to see if he wants to do a duo set with me out in Ohio. The scene here is pretty small but there a few people here I'll probably be interacting with before I'm (hypothetically) playing with the international musicians. Those local people will probably help me learn, while at the same time I grow also from listening to albums and participating in online communities such as IHM.

[Richard Pinnell]

Toshi Nakamura: I'm not sure about Toshi. I'd say on one hand all of the playing in different situations probably helped him, but I also think he's developed quite a bit more via his long-term international relationships as opposed to his local ones..

Just on this... I am not saying that there are not significant benefits to the global community, and I agree that Toshi grew a long way after he began to play with others outside of Japan. He still belonged to a local community first though, where he found his instrument, and learnt to improvise alongside others.

Also, the global community is only really truly accessible once musicians have attained the financing required to be able to belong to it on a physical plane. That remains way out of the reach of most young musicians.