List your Top 5 favorite Erstwhile discs

[user_2274]

1. Keith Rowe/John Tilbury - Duos for Doris
2. Greg Kelley/Jason Lescalleet - Forlorn Green
3. Phil Durrant/Thomas Lehn/Radu Malfatti - dach
4. Burkhard Stangl/Christof Kurzmann - Schnee
5. Thomas Lehn/Marcus Schmickler - Bart

[Yii]

Keith Rowe/G?nter M?ller/Taku Sugimoto - The World Turned Upside Down
Axel D?rner/Kevin Drumm - s/t
Burkhard Stangl/Dieb13 - eh
Matt Davis/Phil Durrant/Mark Wastell - Open
Keith Rowe/Axel D?rner/Franz Hautzinger - A View From the Window

[William Hutson]

kinda dorky. (john gets enough praise on this damned board.) but it is nice to remember that we're all here because we like a lot of the same stuff.

EL005, between, dach, tears, good morning good night. maybe liding? and duos for doris.

kisses.

[user_2274]

kinda dorky.

I agree. I'm a geek. i like lists.

(john gets enough praise on this damned board.)

He also gets slammed quite a bit. This whole ErstPop debate was quite unexpected. I assume Jon was just expecting to announce some upcoming titles on a new branch of his label. i doubt he expected all that.

but it is nice to remember that we're all here because we like a lot of the same stuff.

Exactly my reason for starting the thread, as dorky as it may be.

[William Hutson]

hey, i'm a dork too. no derision intended.

[barry]

really hard to narrow it down to just 5 but..

a view from the window
axel dorner & kevin drumm
the hands of caravaggio
duos for doris
weather sky

i really need a top 10 or 12 i mean...el005, between, good morning good night, schnee_live, etc...

[tadk]

G?nter M?ller/L? Quan Ninh - La Voyelle Liquide
Cor Fuhler/Gert-Jan Prins - The Flirts
J?r?me Noetinger/ErikM - What a Wonderful World
Keith Rowe/Sachiko M/Toshimaru Nakamura/Otomo Yoshihide - EL005
Keith Rowe/John Tilbury - Duos for Doris

[user_826]

He also gets slammed quite a bit.
This whole ErstPop debate was quite unexpected.
I assume Jon was just expecting to announce some upcoming titles on a new branch of his label. i doubt he expected all that.

so you decided to bring back the lost balance ?
and if mr. Abbey expected all that (presumingly), would you still decide to remember us all that we still are doing some "unholly" things and to make closer to our conscience who actually we "slam" ?

+ I really don't see the point of listing albums like they're on "Miss World" or something...
yes, I do think it's a bad way to watch upon any music, especially experimental music.

[user_2127]

1. Sachiko M, Toshimaru Nakamura, Otomo Yoshihide - Good Morning Good Night
2. Keith Rowe, Toshimaru Nakamura - Between
3. Keith Rowe, Axel D?rner, Franz Hautzinger - A View From the Window
4. Keith Rowe, John Tilbury - Duos for Doris
5. Kevin Drumm, Martin T?treault - Particles and Smears

[Dan Warburton]

I "came over to the dark side", as Jon puts it, to engage in some worthwhile discussion of new music, not to sit around making lists of Best Fives, like little kids in a playground swapping Pokemon cards. The really hilarious comment is over on the Emanem thread, from the guy who admits he only has two discs on that label (in his position I'd have kept quiet! you wanna start a thread on Norwegian Death Metal you won't hear a peep from me, promise) I'm tempted to quote Winston Wolf in Pulp Fiction ("let's not start sucking each other's ****s") - you may not be all that interested, but the image many people have of IHM outside IHM as some kind of Jon Abbey Roadshow certainly isn't helped by this kind of exercise.
"It's nice to remember we're here because we like the same stuff"..
sorta goes without saying doesn't it? Do we need to be reminded?

[niwi]

This whole ErstPop debate was quite unexpected.

was it really?

[user_826]

I "came over to the dark side", as Jon puts it, to engage in some worthwhile discussion of new music, not to sit around making lists of Best Fives, like little kids in a playground swapping Pokemon cards.

Well, I don't think that in this moment you have one internet board dealing with contemporary music - that's more serious. Obviously, it could get better and presumably Jazz Corner had some moments, but, as I know, this is the internet board that's by far in the strongest touch with the actuality in experimental music. I realise that you, mr. Warburton, could have issues with this "comtemporarity" notion, but I think experimental music should be concerned with itself today and to always look forward. I have problems with many "improv classicists" that occur around JC or Bagatellen (there are even people there who think that free jazz is ever-valid) because that's nonsense to me, in itself. Experimental music lives today, it develops, it grows and no matter how John Coltrane, John Stevens or Fred Van Hove (or Morton Feldman and John Cage) made great music, experimental (improvised) music lives now, develops now, it's creating now.
In your texts also I have noticed fair share of sentimentality, calling back of the old times, simplicity etc, that's why I think you would have issues with what I write.
But, that doesn't automatically mean that I'm at absolute peace with this board's "general line" and I understand perfectly why someone would think that this board is Jon Abbey Roadshow or why someone would say that "some people are content with the idea that EAI should be reserved for only the most sophisticated. "

[maRi]

The really hilarious comment is over on the Emanem thread, from the guy who admits he only has two discs on that label

the same person who started this thread, if you haven't noticed. perhas he's sold most of his emanem collection as well. and moved on to collecting erstwhile?

This whole ErstPop debate was quite unexpected.

was it really?

with fingers in ears, going 'lalala' and then 'nyah nyah nyah'...yeah, probably.

[negative potential]

In your texts also I have noticed fair share of sentimentality, calling back of the old times, simplicity etc, that's why I think you would have issues with what I write.

Hey comrade, no offense, but you're a fucking blowhard.

But, that doesn't automatically mean that I'm at absolute peace with this board's "general line"

"General line"? Jesus Christ, this isn't the Socialist Workers Party! This board has no more a general line than society at large does.

[negative potential]

...oh, and:

1. Duos for Doris

2. Liding?

3. D?rner/Drumm

4. Tom & Jerry

5. A View from the Window

[sound plague]

I "came over to the dark side", as Jon puts it, to engage in some worthwhile discussion of new music, not to sit around making lists of Best Fives, like little kids in a playground swapping Pokemon cards. The really hilarious comment is over on the Emanem thread, from the guy who admits he only has two discs on that label (in his position I'd have kept quiet! you wanna start a thread on Norwegian Death Metal you won't hear a peep from me, promise) I'm tempted to quote Winston Wolf in Pulp Fiction ("let's not start sucking each other's ****s") - you may not be all that interested, but the image many people have of IHM outside IHM as some kind of Jon Abbey Roadshow certainly isn't helped by this kind of exercise.
"It's nice to remember we're here because we like the same stuff"..
sorta goes without saying doesn't it? Do we need to be reminded?

I appreciate the sentiment, but the existence of threads like this doesn't exactly take away from the possibility of "worthwhile discussion" imo. Threads like this merely coexist. Work and play, strikes and gutterballs. It's life.

I'm not always in the mood for serious conversation. Sometimes I just want to relax and wax lyrical about the music I like with like-minded individuals. If I had non-virtual friends who liked the same music I did I'm sure that quite often the conversation wouldn't elevate above "have you checked out the new Olivia Block cd? It's great, give it a listen." Or "what were your top 10 albums last year?".

That being said.... do non-ihmers really have an image of ihm? Seems to me like a bigger waste of time than making lists.

[user_826]

back to citizen Warburton and this interesting question of Pokemonism and the outer-image of this forum and music discussed at it, in general.

....you may not be all that interested, but the image many people have of IHM outside IHM as some kind of Jon Abbey Roadshow certainly isn't helped by this kind of exercise.

I am all interested in this, because image many people have of contemporary improvisation in general isn't far from what you have written about IHM.
It's a mistake, yes - but mistake made for a reason.
Many people associate contemporary improvisation with 4-5 individuals that bit many people's hearts on JC and Bagatellen stating that jazz is dead, that free improv as we know it is dead, and that "eai" is the latest thing, which if they don't understand, they could just "geeeet out". Many people gained this impression that "eai" is a half-secret avant-garde music country club for the "devoted" - and there was strong factors just hardening such belief:
1) tone that was employed in discussions with the people who couldn't understand what's going on and/or were completely against the further developments in improvised music (or even free jazz)
2) the bare fact that contemporary improvisation really went "places" where no direction in experimental music went before

A person under the nick Uli is maybe the most rabid result of such situation.

Tone that "eai-advocates" employed during the conversations (more like "bashing") with the "uninitiated" left this latter group of people with the feeling that somehow experimental music is waving them goodbye and is going on a trip they just can't follow, from this or that reason. Pretentiousness shown in those situations left many people quite angry at the contemporary improvisation and people who were favoring it.
Adam Hill's text on OFN is another example of the situation back then, which continues to the present day, as people may remember. And his text expressed one more concern; that "eai" is taking over traditional jazz discussion places and that everyone seem to talk about this "new kid" in the experimental music. Usually, you in 80% of the cases had mentioning of "Erstwhile" and "Jon Abbey", which isn't really hard to answer why.
Kind souls that felt that mr. Abbey's label is being unjustly slammed, attacked, targeted etc - resorted to irony, there were words of "Erstwhile's iron-fisted dominance" and what not, which was just missing the point.
"Yes, it is the rare day when I am able to go out in public (to the bank, shopping mall, etc.) and not be assaulted AGAIN by "La Voyelle Liquide" - would be one such attempt.
When you mention "eai's dominance" few years ago, people taking care of Jon Abbey's health immediately try to banalize the affair saying things like this and you'd immediately have obilgatory step in defence: mentioning sold albums, fees, public exposure etc. Like things in this regard and black/white.
But look at the still very fresh example: 40 years ago, similar things happened with free jazz. Do you think that in 1966 Archie Shepp sold more records than _________ (insert "trad jazz" artits from that period) ? While some jazz artists were living in luxury flats, other was forced to leave the States for goods.
Still, relevant jazz magazines ("Downbeat" being the most prominent) were filled with articles on free jazz, free jazz got more discussion then among jazz fans than Duke Elington or Dizzy Gillespie's music, because their music had absolutely nothing new to say.
Really, imagine even with what consequences free jazz artists in the USA faced with in the 1960s - mafia threats, broken bones, racism, unpayed gigs, widespread misery, public condemnation, ignoration from the festivals. And yet, "Downbeat" (as a relevant jazz mag then) was filled with dicussions on free jazz. "Is it music at all ?", "What it aspires ?", "Where this sudden need for such abrupt changes came from ?" etc. Of course, "Downbeat"'s editorial were white middle-class males having very much problems with digesting such a expression, so 90% of the reviews were very negative + fan hate mail in the "letters" part. But music was discussed, style was discussed, intentions were discussed.

So yes; contemporary improvisation (meaning - improvised music), experimental music, discussion surrounding it, world in general - wait for a brighter day.

[user_826]

I appreciate the sentiment, but the existence of threads like this doesn't exactly take away from the possibility of "worthwhile discussion" imo. Threads like this merely coexist. Work and play, strikes and gutterballs. It's life.

Existence of threads like "5 favorite albums on some label" directly take away from the possibility of worthwhile discussion. They may be useful only in statistical research of people's preferences (since when we wanna do that ?).
In the end of the "voting", album which gets the most votes we may announce the absolute winner - and what is worthwhile about that ? + if you see, people are just numbering the albums by place, like it's some sports contest.

I'm not always in the mood for serious conversation. Sometimes I just want to relax and wax lyrical about the music I like with like-minded individuals. If I had non-virtual friends who liked the same music I did I'm sure that quite often the conversation wouldn't elevate above "have you checked out the new Olivia Block cd? It's great, give it a listen." Or "what were your top 10 albums last year?".

Not every exchange of words is conversation, meaning that conversation has to have some sense of seriousness in order to be "conversation". As I said before, forum on which most thriving threads are "recent purchases" and "now listening" is a sad place.
Similar things could be achieved by telephone researches:
"Hello, what's your recent purchases ?
And what are you listening now ? Thank you, bye"
Though, in the same time, it's the only place I have to discuss this music, so please don't shoot one "Why then are you here ?", at me. I think there's more to the music than this and it seems that strinkingly lot of people here are "not always in the mood for serious conversation" - but when it comes to the listing of purchased albums and classifying those albums by unknown (or incredibly suspicious) critierias that "everybody know, just wouldn't like to talk about" - this forum has no equal.

------------------------------------------------------

and yes, mr. Warburton, one question for you; since you do say that "you came here to engage in some worthwhile discussion of new music, not to sit around making lists of Best Fives, like little kids in a playground swapping Pokemon cards", could you share with us your position on what makes one discussion of new music - worthwhile ?
And one more, maybe a bit "slippy", question would be: how to engage in a worthwhile discussion about the music in which people who produce it usually reject to elaborate on what they're really doing and how they watch upon the consequences of their work ?

"[...] But Yoshihide is troubled by the name game the new improv style has prompted. In Japan, the term "onkyo" contains all non-jazz, non-rock, and non-academic electronic music. While it's preferable to anything English has yet devised, Yoshihide still frowns upon the phrase. Like Drumm, he'd prefer to see categories done away with entirely. "Why do people need to make names for something people love? Sometimes names just make fences. I thought I understood 'improvisation,' and that I could do it very well. But now I don't understand what it is, and I feel no need to. I only know that I'm trying to do something I love, and I do love to make music."

How would you approach the question that, during the years of the past method in free improvisation, we had 3-4 books, many articles, detailed insight into the musicians' intentions etc, and now you have musicians that get very angry if you ask them: "What this music means, how would you look upon it ?", and even some records producers get upset ? In this sense, I appreciate your work as one of the rare journalists tackling musical content of contemporary improv, a feat many tend to avoid.
To be clear, name for this direction in improvised music is the smallest problem, much bigger things remain deeply in the dark.

[schiksalgemeinschaft]

for me there are 3 obvious ones: Duos for doris / a s o / EL005


Lately i'm also spinning misenlian, liding?, eh and la voyelle liquide very much.

[user_2274]

so you decided to bring back the lost balance ?

Nothing so grand, actually. Another poster cited Bart as one of the few Erstwhile cd's that he had no interest in, while I quite like that one. It reminded me of the varied flavors within Jon's catalog and caused me to take a new look at the label. There were some titles that I remember liking even though I haven't played them in awhile.

+ I really don't see the point of listing albums like they're on "Miss World" or something...
yes, I do think it's a bad way to watch upon any music, especially experimental music.

Fair enough. I have a simple solution for you:
Don't do it.
Also, some people might enjoy a little light-hearted comparison of tastes within a common theme.

I already acknowledged the geek factor.

Similarly:

I "came over to the dark side", as Jon puts it, to engage in some worthwhile discussion of new music, not to sit around making lists of Best Fives, like little kids in a playground swapping Pokemon cards.

Dan, the dark side will have plenty of topics that you won't share interest in. There's no need to chime in on a topic just to say that you don't want to participate in the topic.