ErstPop?

In fact one could even see this as part of bring more experimental musical elements to the masses, a goal which some posters in this thread seem to be pretty interested in.

I hope none of the people you have in mind would be so naive as to think that (or to think in terms of such a distancing device as "the masses").

The top-down idea of "bringing" culture to "the masses," epitomised by such reactionary thinkers as T.S Eliot and Clive Bell (not the musician, he of the 1920s Bloomsbury circle) has rightly been given a thrashing over the last hundred years. The basis of all cultural divisions are economic, and they're not going to overcome by offering people watered-down scraps from the high-minded table.

looking forward to Erstjazz

personally, i didn't get into the magic ID stuff on first listen, mostly due to margaret's vocals. i somewhat enjoyed the year of's cd, which is closely related to magic ID, if i recall correctly. again, the shortcoming for me there was the singing. schnee live has been the biggest success for me (both the schnee_live disc, and seeing them play twice in three days), but mostly because i find the instrumental aspect more gratifying than the other two projects i mentioned (but again, i've only barely heard those). the instrumental aspect is admittedly closer to eai than magic id or the year of. and the singing is once again the weak part, although its presence is what makes the project what it is -- i like having the balance, blend and opposition of the two elements. the instrumental sections (i'm not calling them improv, because they could just as easily be composed, to my ears) lend additional "gravitas" to the singsongy segments. which, in turn, add a lightheartedness that i enjoy, at times, in such "heavy" surroundings. lighthearted does not equal ironic, in my book (not that there's anything wrong with that -- some of my best friends, etc).
and plus, the post-ironic age has is upon us:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Sincerity

ps- so i guess what i'm saying is i'm really excited about this, but it might take a singer other than christof or margaret to make me really fall in love with it.

nice post, and totally understandable about the singing (it's margareth, FWIW).

in terms of the balance between the song and instrumental parts, the magic I.D. is somewhere between the year of (which I'm not crazy about, mimi secue's 'forst' is a more successful record in this direction to my ears) and schnee_live. the myspace tracks are skewed toward the poppier part of the material, but the overall record is very balanced between those two, and more organically intertwined than other attempts I've heard in this direction.

looking forward to Erstjazz

hehe, I wouldn't hold my breath for that. you might be the man to change my mind someday, though!

it's spelled bernhard gunter, darko. and what does he (or kahn, mueller, etc) have to do with pop? we know you have an agenda, there are already several threads devoted to it. thanks, though.

also, forgot about sylvian. another singer i can't stand. his songs with fennesz and bailey epitomize the neologism "cringeworthy" for me.

edit:

it's margareth, fwiw

POWNED! so that's where the extra H in gunther came from...

I think Mark totally nails this with a point that I have made over and over again. There is no introducing of pop elements into eai, its using eai elements in pop music.

This is a troublesome generalisation for me. I personally think there is a fundemental difference between improvising musicians making pop music (see some of Schnee_live, some of the International Nothing, Mattin's Songbooks, The Year Of etc...) and pop elements being used as a part of an essentially abstract piece of music (see The First Ever I Saw Your Face, the Keith Rowe /Karen Carpenter live set I saw last year etc...)

Taking the structures of a pop song and doing somehting quirky with it (be it a new composition or a cover version) is essentially a very different thing to me to using a recording as a 'found object' that inspires a completely new piece of music. The former way of making music is far less interesting to me than the latter.

I don't see any trouble there. The first ones in your list are pop music, the ones using samples or radio grabs are not (necessarily).

I don't see any trouble there. The first ones in your list are pop music, the ones using samples or radio grabs are not (necessarily).

Yes, exactly, so if they are not pop music then the second set are essentially introducing pop elements into "eai" aren't they?

I don't think so. When one says pop elements they are meaning the structures and components of pop music. Using a sample is using a part of an entire pop song, not the elements that make up that pop song.

[mudd]

I hope none of the people you have in mind would be so naive as to think that (or to think in terms of such a distancing device as "the masses").

pretty sure that was a joke, but who knows? mostly, we're gonna have to ask that age-old fake question, 'what's so experimental about music?'

m

hands up if you actually like any pop music...

* free math raises hand

i'm not sure how relevant the opinion of those who don't listen to any pop music is to this discussion...

edit: what i rather should have said is that i think it is relevant to know whether those who are turned off by this mixing of genres are simply uninterested in any pop music, mainstream or otherwise.

pretty sure that was a joke, but who knows?

m

Oh I can tell you who knows. I forget though the humorlessness of the idealists.

pretty sure that was a joke, but who knows?

m

Oh I can tell you who knows. I forget though the humorlessness of the idealists.

would I be kicked off IHM if I admitted I love most pop music to the large majority of eai stuff I've heard over the last 5 years...?

whoa hold on... I have the feeling that a lot of back and forth about a bunch of records that don't exist yet might be fundamentally stupid, but what the hell...
Jon, are these things you're putting out like, freely improvised? Do the people involved make the pop songs that they play according to a pre-arranged structure? I think that a lot of this whole "This is a retrograde failure against the true goals of this our improvised music" stuff might be sort of off if it's the former. If it's the latter, what the hell, it all sounds fun.
I think that making a sub-label to corral it off is sort of chicken, though. Schnee worked as an ersthwhile release, why not these?
Also, the whole thing about muller and kahn, they're improvising musicians, duh. They might be uninterested in a harsh, high modernist - consonant sound palette, but if you're interested in improvisation as a method, rather than the rsults of said method, then their stuff is as legitimate as the bowed sheet metal crowd's stuff.
I think that dipping this sort of stuff into a pop context (what the folks in Radian were referring to as "horn-rim disco" a couple of years ago) is going to make for good times for good music.
and that's what I think about the comments being made around a bunch of records that aren't going to come out for a year.

[mudd]

well that's nice, will, but we aren't talking about the records that haven't come out yet anymore.

m

Jon, are these things you're putting out like, freely improvised? Do the people involved make the pop songs that they play according to a pre-arranged structure?

well, of the two records that will be on this imprint, only one has been made so far, the other (the new schnee) will be recorded later this year. the magic I.D. consists of what I believe are pretty tightly composed tracks with occasional room for improvisation (this is an educated guess based solely on listening, and if kai is lurking and wants to add anything here, feel free).

I think that making a sub-label to corral it off is sort of chicken, though. Schnee worked as an erstwhile release, why not these?

assuming you mean schnee_live and not the original schnee, that was an erstlive. I think that erstwhile should have certain boundaries as a label, and for me, the magic I.D. was just too far. I also started a erstsolo imprint for keith's upcoming 'the room', because erstwhile is strictly a collaborative label, no solos.

and that's what I think about the comments being made around a bunch of records that aren't going to come out for a year.

somewhere in the 3-6 month range for the magic I.D., but yeah.

well that's nice, will, but we aren't talking about the records that haven't come out yet anymore.

m

Look, dude, the internet goes really slow here, cut me some slack. And Jon, I get sub-label logic, it's based on method of production, just like i was spouting off about in my previous post in this thread. Consistency.. hobgoblin... small something something.

I guess I should pare my comments down to: Awesome! I can't wait to hear them! and leave it at that.

[mudd]

would I be kicked off IHM if I admitted I love most pop music to the large majority of eai stuff I've heard over the last 5 years...?

yes. yes you would.

i should warn you, before you start confessing anything, i'm already wearing steel-toed boots.

and sorry, will, didn't mean to snark. thread's been more annoying than it should have been.

m

would I be kicked off IHM if I admitted I love most pop music to the large majority of eai stuff I've heard over the last 5 years...?

yes. yes you would.

i should warn you, before you start confessing anything, i'm already wearing steel-toed boots.

and sorry, will, didn't mean to snark. thread's been more annoying than it should have been.

m

Sure it's been annoying...which is why I made my confession in the first place...in case anyone started pointing fingers at that pop-loving SOB

Well isn't this a topic that's been brewing for some time..

First off, I can say that I don't really connect with Schnee and that way of using pop as a template, though I'm curious about what they're doing.

Taking the structures of a pop song and doing somehting quirky with it (be it a new composition or a cover version) is essentially a very different thing to me to using a recording as a 'found object' that inspires a completely new piece of music. The former way of making music is far less interesting to me than the latter.

I agree with Richard here, but I'd extend that further to say that popular music's effect on experimental music isn't always going to announce itself or beat you on the head, "hey, this is about to get really subversive here!". It really doesn't need to be subversive or ironic at all.

Who's to say that within an improvisation a certain phrasing or pattern or timbre doesn't connect those synapses that remember "California Dreaming", and a related intuitive response results.

Pop music is more than structure and semantic meaning, after all. I think it's appeal has as much to do with sonics as any other music.

Bhob Rainey brought up (in that other thread) porous relationships between ideas that seem opposed. That is my feeling on pop/experimental. I tend to call the area "grey" not to denote a morally dubious position, but to point out how these lines in the sand are convenient for argument's sake when in reality things are just not that simple.

I listened to an interview with Alvin Lucier where he talked about listening to Elton John and Eminem on his ipod while working out on the treadmill. I was shocked... but then again, why should I be?