Why Improvised Music is so Boring

[quinn]

It seems the topic of discussion here became: What is ihatemusic(dot)com for?

[quinn]

Then again, the points being argued in this thread have been enlightening so thanks regardless of where it went

[mudd]

It seems the topic of discussion here became: What is ihatemusic(dot)com for?

wait, where did that happen?

m

[schiksalgemeinschaft]

Something about this thread reminds me of South Park's parody of Glenn Beck: "I'm not saying the president is a penis-hungry hooker with a huge vagina, I'm just asking questions."

LOL

[RFKorp]

It seems the topic of discussion here became: What is ihatemusic(dot)com for?

wait, where did that happen?

m

yeah, it definitely happens on a regular basis, but I don't see it in this thread either.

[markt]

more questions (or answers?) here:

http://www.youtube.com/v/1mY7RbtYsp0?fs=1&hl=en_US

Say what you will about his work
but the guy's a snappy dresser...

[jkudler]

Then again, the points being argued in this thread have been enlightening so thanks regardless of where it went

wait, where did that happen?

-j.

[Dan Warburton]

comparing Motubachii againt some inconsequential improv release from this year is no different than comparing Flockaveli and one of the generic mixtapes a guy tried to sell me on my walk to work today.

I'd like to know (maybe you could PM, in case someone gets offended.. seems to happen rather easily here) what you consider to be an "inconsequential" improv release of the year, Richard.
Apologies to Jesse Goin for taking a remark of his from another thread somewhat out of context, but I think the following is relevant to this particular discussion:

I can be quite critical of the area of music under discussion. At dinner tonight [audience of two] I articulated my growing sense that EAI has become, in a single decade, self-referential, cliche-prone and swims a great deal in the safe end of the pool. Granted, this is a disaffection fostered by a close to exclusive immersion in EAI for 6 years, and a pretty studied effort to hear much of the strongest work of the past decade. Anyway, the potential to articulate entropy and end-games is always there for me

Let me give you example of something I've heard recently that I find extremely disappointing (it's not improv in fact, but belongs very much to the world of music generally lauded on this board and released on an improv label of note): the Manfred Werder 3" on Cathnor. I seriously wonder whether, if you received this as a CDR from Todd Nobody in Garden City, Kansas ("hey guys, I uhh, just went down with my mics and sat by Highway 156 last night to dig the birdsong, love and peace, Todd"), you wouldn't flip it into the garbage with a snigger. But because it's nominally a composition by a member of the Wandelweiser Group, who seem to be able to do no wrong here (though who as far as I'm concerned are beginning to approach sell by date - I'm afraid the word "stagnant" often comes to mind), it's super. Hell, we even had one poster saying he would probably prefer this disc to the others in the latest batch of Cathnors even before hearing it

It seems the topic of discussion here became: What is ihatemusic(dot)com for?

I suspect that this explains why the Chamys and Mattins of this world seem to be more intent on giving the finger to EAI, particularly the music that seems to receive universal approval here often without question, instead of targeting other areas of improvised music.
I think there is much to take issue with at the moment in this little world (and in its own inept way Keenan's silly bacon roll / shag piece in The Wire tried to do just that), but throwing about half-assed quotes from Guy Debord or jumping into the audience with a mic in hand and asking them if they know what improvised music is or even sitting statue still and staring smugly at the audience or whatever else the latest gimmick is from Mattin's Flying Circus is not the best way to do it. FWIW, I found the Guionnet / Murayama performance Chamy interrupts particularly dull (that didn't make his interruption any more enjoyable).

I just don't understand why nobody in the audience is laughing at the jokes?

Because they're not funny. The "email message from a friend" sounds like bad Laurie Anderson. Without the timing.
Anyway, as I was saying, I think the best way to call such music - or any music - into question ("question everything, even the questioning, etc., no stone unturned, radical approach, be bold and do things differently, do the unexpected, épater le bourgeois. Performative, committed, aggressive.. break convention, open people, including the artist. But open to what?") is through the music itself. Attentive listening to improvised music (of all sorts - motubachii isn't the only album to come my way this year that's radically shaken up my listening: I find the Syndromes CD and Vanessa Rossetto's LP, not to mention the Fell / Burn / Thomas on Another Timbre, the Koboku Senjû on Sofa, the Foster / Parks twofer, the John Russell solo on psi, the Hubweber / Zoubek duo on Emanem etc just as "game-changing") provides more answers, and richer, more rewarding answers, than sophomoronic Situationist ranting. Which takes me to Joe's point:

in the context of Europe, there may be some good reasons to be especially critical of "highbrow" music, since it is at least sometimes in receipt of funding, government or otherwise. Not sure that mixtape guy is up for a STEIM fellowship...

Yes, I'm still curious to hear from the festival organiser. And, fwiw, I'm prepared to wager a small sum that Mattin, for one, will, in a few years' time, be comfortably settled in a tenured teaching post in some redbrick university somewhere. That's not an ad hominem attack - I like Mattin very much as a person and enjoy spending time with him - it's a simple observation on my part that this "critical" "issue-taking" "conceptual" stuff is simply aspiring to mainstream acceptance.
The soldier, "full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard, / Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel, / Seeking the bubble reputation / Even in the cannon's mouth" becomes "the justice, / In fair round belly with good capon lined, / With eyes severe and beard of formal cut, / Full of wise saws and modern instances; /And so he plays his part."

[jon abbey]

Let me give you example of something I've heard recently that I find extremely disappointing (it's not improv in fact, but belongs very much to the world of music generally lauded on this board and released on an improv label of note): the Manfred Werder 3" on Cathnor. I seriously wonder whether, if you received this as a CDR from Todd Nobody in Garden City, Kansas ("hey guys, I uhh, just went down with my mics and sat by Highway 156 last night to dig the birdsong, love and peace, Todd"), you wouldn't flip it into the garbage with a snigger. But because it's nominally a composition by a member of the Wandelweiser Group, who seem to be able to do no wrong here (though who as far as I'm concerned are beginning to approach sell by date - I'm afraid the word "stagnant" often comes to mind), it's super. Hell, we even had one poster saying he would probably prefer this disc to the others in the latest batch of Cathnors even before hearing it

come on, Dan, you can do better than this. the composers grouped under the Wandelweiser umbrella all have very different bodies of work and career paths. Werder is probably the most extreme and I think it'd be an interesting discussion as to whether his recent composition style makes sense to even make recordings of, although plenty of people seem interested in doing just that.

but if you're calling Radu or Pisaro or Beuger stagnant right now, I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you. all three of them have produced career high points in the last few years, not their only high points certainly, but right up there in every case. and having heard upcoming Radu (duo material with Rowe, specifically his 'nariyamu' composition) and Pisaro (close constellations and a drum on the ground) releases, I can tell you that if they're "stagnant", the rest of the world is running backwards fast.

[jkudler]

in the same way that bop, in the space of barely a decade and a half, willingly embraced a carefully codified system of rules, today's lowercase improvisers have likewise carefully drawn out the boundary lines that demarcate their particular territory, and woe betide you if you step across them.
There are quite simply things that one just does not do in this music. The odd recognisable pitch is OK (and, after all, pretty hard to avoid), but stringing more than two of them together seems to be out of the question: two notes make an interval, three make a melody. Melody verboten. Dynamics are to stay in the Feldman range between quiet and nearly inaudible, but the volume level is allowed briefly to rise above this a) if you're playing with Mattin or b) the music seems to be heading towards a climax of sorts. But by and large climaxes are studiously avoided – too "old school", that time-honoured start-quiet-build-up-shoot-yr-wad-and-go-back-to-sleep model – lowercase isn't sexy. Leave all that testosterone for Mats Gustafsson. And to make sure you don't get carried away and end up with an erection, insert plenty of silence. There's nothing like strategic inactivity to kill the concupiscence. Similarly, apart from a few carefully positioned Geiger counter key click pops once in a while, any semblance of regular rhythm is ruled out. Remember Eddie Prévost's line about the imperialist backbeat. Slammin' beats are for getting down to, getting busy to. Too lascivious. Remember above all that your playing partners are roommates rather than lovers; just because you're living under the same roof doesn't mean you have to engage them in conversation or, heaven forbid, anything more intimate, all the time. Occasional polite social intercourse is permitted, of the "would-you-care-for-a-cup-of-tea" or "please pass the salt" kind, and slight bodily contact is almost unavoidable (when passing the salt, for instance), but keep those emotions in check, please. The reason a lot of this music hisses like a pressure cooker ready to blow is that it's precisely that. Ready to blow. All that nasty anger, violence and lust has been driven underground. When Lucio Capece yelps and nearly loses control about 20 minutes into the first track on the Innomable duo, it's certainly striking, but like that famous sudden fortissimo drum roll in Feldman's For Frank O'Hara, we're talking un grain de folie rather than an omen of impending breakdown and madness. Back to the draughty gurgles. Let's leave all that vulgar screaming to wild men like Paul Flaherty.
This music's sexlessness also explains why it never seems to know when to finish. When you get to the end of a Mats Gustafsson solo you know it's time to roll over, reach for the packet of cigs and coo "was it good for you babe" in the ear of the beloved. With Dörner, Capece and Hayward it's not so much coitus interruptus as never-ending foreplay. That's fine, I guess. After all, folks grow up. You don't see too many 60-year-olds grabbing at their crotches in public like Eugene Robinson. Maybe finally improvised music has finally hung its wild years on a peg driven through Radu Malfatti's forehead, settled down, started wearing suits and ties, worrying about mortgage repayments and going grey.

[jon abbey]

not sure why Jesse didn't credit that, but it's evidently a Warburton review from 2007 of the Dorner/Capece duo and the Dorner/Capece/Hayward trio releases:

http://www.paristransatlantic.com/magaz ... _text.html

Ben Watson's fatal mistake in his reviews was often taking things one step too far: maybe he thought one particular American free improv record wasn't up to his standards, which is of course totally valid, but that doesn't equate to all American free improv being inferior. Dan falls into the same trap here: these two records are just one narrow sector of "today's lowercase/EAI", even in 2007, generalizing just from those is really easy to pick apart.

[jkudler]

jesus, if you guys really are this sensitive and humorless, i guess you/we really *do* need interventions like diego's. did anyone actually read the linked text or watch the performance? i'm not going to defend it like it's some masterpiece, but what you are attacking really doesn't resemble what i saw. for one, it was pretty clearly pitched at a joking tone (and i thought it was funny). the porn thing, which you guys got bogged down in for reasons totally incomprehensible to me, was pretty clearly just a goofy joke. the central conceit about improv being boring was framed as diego's friend's assertion, and the entire performance could arguably be read as a *defense* of improv. it's pretty clear from diego's past work, his current projects, and his collaborators that he has an enormous respect for improvised music and that plenty serious improvisers (axel dorner, andrea neumann, etc) respect him. you'll note he let murayama and guionnet play uninterrupted for about 10 minutes before he walks out; another reading is arguably the difference in affect between their unaccompanied playing and their playing with talking. i don't see any real reason they have to be background to chamy's foreground. i'm on vacation now and don't have good internet, so watching the video is a bit difficult, but as i recall, the song is arguably an attempt to make himself look stupider and goofier than the improvisers. it also seems like the questioning the audience bit is meant to be a parody of that practice.

As I think Jesse K said on Richard’s blog at the time, it sounded as if some of the contributors assumed that anyone into improvised music was mindlessly stuck in it without applying any critical intelligence. Unfortunately I felt your performance fitted into that condescending tendency (and its title certainly didn't help). Criticism is welcome, but I’d much rather read a thought-through article than attend a performance which seems to be looking down its nose at me while prodding with a stick to try to provoke a reaction.

i'd forgotten about that statement, which i went and re-read (thanks). yeah, i don't think it necessarily applies here; i was more trying to isolate the difficulty of what -for lack of a better term- i'll call "didactic" performances. but i would like to reiterate this:

the ultimate performance i can propose to instal next year would be me critiquing the predictability of Chamy critiquing the predictability of Guionnet and Murayama’s music while he was critiquing their playing while they were playing. barry, call me.

-jesse

[Dan Warburton]

Let me give you example of something I've heard recently that I find extremely disappointing (it's not improv in fact, but belongs very much to the world of music generally lauded on this board and released on an improv label of note): the Manfred Werder 3" on Cathnor. I seriously wonder whether, if you received this as a CDR from Todd Nobody in Garden City, Kansas ("hey guys, I uhh, just went down with my mics and sat by Highway 156 last night to dig the birdsong, love and peace, Todd"), you wouldn't flip it into the garbage with a snigger. But because it's nominally a composition by a member of the Wandelweiser Group, who seem to be able to do no wrong here (though who as far as I'm concerned are beginning to approach sell by date - I'm afraid the word "stagnant" often comes to mind), it's super. Hell, we even had one poster saying he would probably prefer this disc to the others in the latest batch of Cathnors even before hearing it

come on, Dan, you can do better than this. the composers grouped under the Wandelweiser umbrella all have very different bodies of work and career paths. Werder is probably the most extreme and I think it'd be an interesting discussion as to whether his recent composition style makes sense to even make recordings of, although plenty of people seem interested in doing just that.

but if you're calling Radu or Pisaro or Beuger stagnant right now, I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you. all three of them have produced career high points in the last few years, not their only high points certainly, but right up there in every case. and having heard upcoming Radu (duo material with Rowe, specifically his 'nariyamu' composition) and Pisaro (close constellations and a drum on the ground) releases, I can tell you that if they're "stagnant", the rest of the world is running backwards fast.

I suspected you'd leap on the bit in brackets and ride in with the cavalry to defend the Wandelweisers, Jon - but what about addressing the other point: Todd's motorway field recordings.. surely Mark's remark about the Werder indicates that you - we (I'm not immune) - tend to form a priori judgements based on what we know about the person behind the work. Seems that just about every Michael Pisaro recording that appears is hailed here as a Great Event. Heaven knows, there've been some magnificent Pisaro releases this past year, but they're not all at the same high level, in my opinion. Idem for Malfatti, Beuger, Unami, you name it.
That's the - remember the word - orthodoxy Mattin and his merry men seem to want to shoot spitballs at, wouldn't you say?

[mudd]

uh. my comment? i'm afraid that was a joke, dan. i'm pretty indifferent to mandred werder, i just like to disagree with you and jesse. not a big wandelweisser fan myself, in fact there is very little chance anything in the cathnor batch will compete with cremaster for my attention. they've arrived here but i've listened to none of them yet.

i was sure that chunk of text jesse quoted was from that david keenan piece, but now i guess it was dan's parody thereof? in any case i've not watched the chamy videos but i do hope that jesse's reading is closer to the intention of the piece than the responses off page 1.

m

[Jesse]

I weakened, watched Chamy's bit with the hapless duo.
Two words-Adam Sandler. It's a bit folks. I prefer Mattin's brio.

[jon abbey]

I suspected you'd leap on the bit in brackets and ride in with the cavalry to defend the Wandelweisers, Jon - but what about addressing the other point: Todd's motorway field recordings.. surely Mark's remark about the Werder indicates that you - we (I'm not immune) - tend to form a priori judgements based on what we know about the person behind the work.

yeah, of course, which doesn't then preclude listening to it and possibly radically changing those opinions. if you want to have a discussion about Werder, we should do that (and I tried to start it in my response), and that would probably be much more interesting than your generalizations here. I can't address your specific point about the Cathnor one, since it has yet to arrive here, but I would say that your statement certainly holds true for the recent Futow Werder, and I personally have zero expectations for the Cathnor one. when a score solely consists of the instructions "a day a sound" (Werder's 2007-1), I'm not sure we need a recording of any performance of that, but that's just my opinion, others seem to enjoy it and would likely defend it if you raised the debate in the right place.

Seems that just about every Michael Pisaro recording that appears is hailed here as a Great Event. Heaven knows, there've been some magnificent Pisaro releases this past year, but they're not all at the same high level, in my opinion. Idem for Malfatti, Beuger, Unami, you name it.
That's the - remember the word - orthodoxy Mattin and his merry men seem to want to shoot spitballs at, wouldn't you say?

they don't know what they want to attack, and neither do you, really. if you think I buy into that kind of orthodoxy for any musician in the world, Rowe, Pisaro, whoever, you're simply not paying attention.

also, if you want to get into this kind of back and forth, it's honestly hard for me to take the opinions too seriously of someone who attempts to listen to as many new releases as you do, the math simply doesn't add up for any kind of in-depth listening and/or thought. I have no doubt that you've spent plenty of time with your handful of faves, but past that I don't put much stock in your opinions/statements. that's not a criticism (although I'm sure you'll take it that way), just giving you my perspective on your perspective. you asked in one of these threads for someone to point you in the right direction on the Pisaro/Sugimoto, here goes: listen to less music, and spend more time with what you do listen to. whether that includes Ersts or not is up to you.

[jon abbey]

i was sure that chunk of text jesse quoted was from that david keenan piece, but now i guess it was dan's parody thereof?

FWIW, Dan wasn't parodying anything, that was a straightforward review written before the Keenan piece.

again, I think there's some truth to it if he was sticking to the two records in question or even Axel's work in general, it's that extra step to try to apply a narrow conclusion to a much wider range of music that falls flat.

[Jesse]

Another thread that seems DFDLO.
[Destined for the DLO].

[jon abbey]

that would be a shame, as there's a real discussion to be had if people are up for it, although it doesn't belong in this thread.

[RFKorp]

comparing Motubachii againt some inconsequential improv release from this year is no different than comparing Flockaveli and one of the generic mixtapes a guy tried to sell me on my walk to work today.

I'd like to know (maybe you could PM, in case someone gets offended.. seems to happen rather easily here) what you consider to be an "inconsequential" improv release of the year, Richard.

I would even lump my own releases into that category. the live recordings of Delicate Sen and Tandem Electrics that I've been handing out this year. Perfectly enjoyable music (still better than plenty of other recordings I'm NOT sharing!) in pretty handmade packaging, at a highly affordable price, but not something most people will likely continue to crave hearing in a few years.

But really, while I failed to keep a list of new releases I heard this year in order to make a top 10 at the end, I feel pretty confident that MOST of it I only needed to hear a couple times, if at all.

motubachii isn't the only album to come my way this year that's radically shaken up my listening: I find the Syndromes CD and Vanessa Rossetto's LP, not to mention the Fell / Burn / Thomas on Another Timbre, the Koboku Senjû on Sofa, the Foster / Parks twofer, the John Russell solo on psi, the Hubweber / Zoubek duo on Emanem etc just as "game-changing"

I'll agree that Syndromes, Vanessa's record (should really be noting the Hwaet disc here too), and the Foster/Parks were very strong. and potentially of a SIMILAR game-changing power but not necessarily in the same manner or with as instant an obvious effect.

That is not to say that Motubachii broke all molds and forced everyone to reconsider their whole notion of music. I think it did an excellent job of executing certain ideas that had already begun floating around among other musicians as well but were not so concretely (and enjoyably) documented. So for that, it deserves props and will continue to be recognized as a significant moment in this area of music.

Of the other records, the only one I haven't heard is the Hubweber/Zoubek. But I strongly disagree on the impact of the rest. In fact, while quite pretty, everything I've heard on the Sofa label could probably have gone into my answer to the first question above. And even a significant portion of what I've hard on Another Timbre too. (sorry, Simon).

I mean, really... the albums that have struck me and stuck with me and made me reconsider my music making in the latter part of 2010 are hardly eai improv, been a hard year for that area of music. Instead I'm taking my cues from stuff like the Billy Bao LP on PAN, Mark Fell's "UL8", and a super rough tape of Olson/Dilloway jams.