is EAI noise?

[howsthatsound]

This isn't an "argument", it's a matter tastes and preferences.

ok discussion then? i didn't realize that the word argue would have a negative connotation in this context.

What is objectivity in matters of taste?

there is none, that's why i asked.

This Cage match between the post-Darmstadts and the Onkyo/Reductionists is as concocted an affair as the WWF.

but using the tools and techniques of the first generation to make a more coherent, elegant music

is this not saying that one is better than the other? not that that constitutes a "cage match" or anything.

also, fwiw i personally don't value coherence or elegance in and of themselves so i can understand if this is not a value judgement, but merely a description of the content.

edit: sorry for the misquote!

[snailed]

i also really like the title track on morris knight's after guernica. if you compare this stuff to something like the aforementioned 'the room' or 'between', you can really hear the refinement in style and aesthetic that's gone on (whether you prefer it or not... i mostly do, but like both and still listen to the classic stuff)

Oof...that Morris Knight album really isn't very good...

As I said, I don't like anything but the title track. Thanks for your input. I'm aware of what I think is good. It's not great by any means, just a place to look in the huge creel pone catalog. Perhaps you can make a recommendation or addition to the thread besides little snips.

Other ones I think are worth a look: The Josef Anton Riedl LP (also available on AGP... particularly the track "Paper Music"), Eloy's Gaku No Michi, Pierre Henry's Cortical Art 3, Pietro Grossi's Computer Music, and the Creelpolation. There are also quite a few to avoid (I really dislike the Logothetis, the Jocy De Oliveira tracks with the vocals are really bad but I like the other tracks... in general, most of them are mixed bags, the Morris Knight is an example of that).

[Richard Pinnell]

I think that the disconnect here (or at least in the earlier thread) is because what some of us perceive as eai (maybe wrongly) includes very different musicians and their music as a whole - not just specific discs. I mean what does Butcher or Malfatti have in common with, Akiyama, Marchetti, or Domenico Sciajno. (to pick 5 names of different nationalities)

Well of those five names I wouldn't be overly shocked if any of them other than Malfatti were announced to be collaborating. Worth remembering that Butcher and Malfatti played together a lot in the eighties and nineties too, most notably in the News from the Shed group, an ensemble often attributed (in the UK at least) as one of the early pointers towards EAI.

My point is that at certain points in their careers all of those musicians could easily have worked with one another, but I agree there are also enough significant differences between them to make a simple definition of the music impossible.

I even find difficult to associate Sugimoto, Nakamura, Akiyama under one genre. IMO the only common thing here is ethics. Or, a continuous quest for creative (social?) freedom. Which really is what I perceive jazz to be too. But eai is not Jazz, and equally it seems like eai is not a genre, more than postmodernism is.

The first part of this is a bit silly when you consider that for several years Sugimoto, Akiyama and Nakamura played almost exclusively with one another, and were three of the names most commonly linked to EAI in its early days. If indeed there is a recognisable EAI "sound" then those three went some way to help define it. Indeed it is harder (but far from impossible) to link them together today, but that sound continues with other musicians.

I actually do agree that EAI isn't really a genre though, and as time passes and the musicians evolve it becomes even less of one and more of a vague collection of smaller intersecting areas of music. Whilst not specific enough to be able to call it a genre the term EAI serves a purpose to throw a wide net around this collection of assorted musicians simply to help us all understand what we are talking about when discussing the music. Defining labels any more than this has always struck me as pointless anyway.

One can narrow the term to cover Rowe, Nakamura, certain Erst releases, and a bunch of other musicians and labels that do experimental/electronic/noise only. in which case the term becomes much more focused, and jazz (and classical in my view), has very little to do with it (if any).

Well I think of EAI as a series of overlapping Venn diagrams, and yes maybe there is enough significant cross over between these to be able to define a set of core attributes to a central EAI sound, but I fail to see who could ever benefit from identifyling such a thing. For every release that fitted neatly under the category there would be ten that wouldn't.

Personally I think I'd rather just spend time listening to and enjoying the music rather than worrying overly about the content of this and the other thread.

[Alastair]

Personally I think I'd rather just spend time listening to and enjoying the music rather than worrying overly about the content of this and the other thread.

My thoughts exactly, especially when people are so touchy, viz:

As I said, I don't like anything but the title track. Thanks for your input. I'm aware of what I think is good. It's not great by any means, just a place to look in the huge creel pone catalog. Perhaps you can make a recommendation or addition to the thread besides little snips.

Of the ten I own (I don't have any that you mention positively or negatively except the Morris Knight one), I'd recommend "Symphonie Jaune" by Paul Boisselet, "The Pulses Of Time" by Denis Smalley, "Blanche Neige" by Jacques Lejeune and the "New Zealand Electronic Music" compilation (some less good tracks on there, but the rest makes up for them). I wouldn't start to think about putting them in an historical continuum then ends in (for instance) Hong Chulki. I just like them.

[schiksalgemeinschaft]

I actually do agree that EAI isn't really a genre though, and as time passes and the musicians evolve it becomes even less of one and more of a vague collection of smaller intersecting areas of music. Whilst not specific enough to be able to call it a genre the term EAI serves a purpose to throw a wide net around this collection of assorted musicians simply to help us all understand what we are talking about when discussing the music. Defining labels any more than this has always struck me as pointless anyway.

isn't the bold excactly what a genre is?

let's maybe first discuss the semantics of the term 'genre'

[Dan Warburton]

a class or category of artistic endeavor having a particular form, content, technique, or the like (Dictionary.com)

a category of artistic composition, as in music or literature, marked by a distinctive style, form, or content (American Heritage Dictionary)

In terms of style, form, content and technique I think it's perfectly fair to describe EAI as a genre, and if we all stopped moaning about it and just accepted the term instead of dreaming up other alternatives, none of which are ever likely to catch on, perhaps we could move on. I've given up trying to define what is or isn't EAI (tried once before as you know, came to no firm conclusions, and am now inclined to dodge the issue by saying "I know it when I hear it" ), but I constantly try to use it where appropriate in my own reviews. But I see the term still hasn't caught on (it's frequently changed by editors in my Wire reviews, for instance), and I think threads like this one (and the other two here) are partly responsible, giving occasional visitors to this site the impression we can't really decide amongst ourselves.

[howsthatsound]

just a side note... whether or not people around here like these threads or not, or think they are useful to anyone or not, i always end up getting turned on to new sounds from them. it's continually astounding just how much is out there. somehow these threads always end up kicking up some good stuff.

ok, back to your regularly scheduled semantic debacle.

[will]

a class or category of artistic endeavor having a particular form, content, technique, or the like (Dictionary.com)

a category of artistic composition, as in music or literature, marked by a distinctive style, form, or content (American Heritage Dictionary)

In terms of style, form, content and technique I think it's perfectly fair to describe EAI as a genre, and if we all stopped moaning about it and just accepted the term instead of dreaming up other alternatives, none of which are ever likely to catch on, perhaps we could move on. I've given up trying to define what is or isn't EAI (tried once before as you know, came to no firm conclusions, and am now inclined to dodge the issue by saying "I know it when I hear it" ), but I constantly try to use it where appropriate in my own reviews. But I see the term still hasn't caught on (it's frequently changed by editors in my Wire reviews, for instance), and I think threads like this one (and the other two here) are partly responsible, giving occasional visitors to this site the impression we can't really decide amongst ourselves.

Genre refers to a form of art which has distinctive / particular form and content, eai is a genre, but the people who spend hours and hours arguing about it on the internet can't identify particular form and content? This doesn't sound like genre to me; I think that Richard was much more on it with his Venn diagram comment.
When I have to describe this sort of music, I point out negatives in terms of tendencies; it's really unlikely that people working in this area would base their work around a distinct rhythm, there almost definitely won't be a recognizable melody, occasionally people relate pitches, pieces are rarely of short duration, quotation of distinct genre is very uncommon. These descriptors don't describe a genre, though, they describe possible features, and this isn't a bad thing.
Ultimately, what a bunch of internet music fans call eai is just a confluence of the work of a bunch of creative people working outside the bounds of distinct genre; over time, stronger genre conventions may develop, but for now, this stuff is still engagingly hard to pin down.

[niwi]

But I see the term still hasn't caught on (it's frequently changed by editors in my Wire reviews, for instance)

when it's changed, what is it most often changed to?

[p_ano]

But I see the term still hasn't caught on (it's frequently changed by editors in my Wire reviews, for instance)

yeah, this is stunning to me. i find it hard to believe that the wire is so out of touch.

[hatta]

i find it hard to believe that the wire is so out of touch.

really?

[p_ano]

i find it hard to believe that the wire is so out of touch.

really?

i realize that the wire isn't on the bleeding edge, and doesn't attempt to be. but i just figured EAI was fairly well-known at this point.

[Jesse]

The Wire covers a fair amount of music in this area. The nomenclature is different. Not calling it eai, a placeholder that springs from internet bulletin boards, ain't no thing.

[howsthatsound]

is there a publication that does a better job at covering this general area? the wire is ok for a broad view, but i feel like it's covering too many things to really cover any one thing very consistantly.

[p_ano]

Not calling it eai, a placeholder that springs from internet bulletin boards, ain't no thing.

in 2008, internet bulletin boards and online magazines are far more relevant than any print magazine. therefore, print magazines would be wise to adopt our nomenclature.

just curious though, how does the wire label this music? dan?

edit: i must add that i'm not even all that partial to the term 'eai'. this is just the term that everyone seems to have agreed upon....

[jon abbey]

I'm pretty sure I've seen 'EAI' in the Wire a lot, maybe it just depends on who's editing.

[bryan]

eai seems like a genre as much as any other. It doesn't have to be a prison unless one thinks of it that way, no? Noise music itself covers a lot of area, as does Rock music, etc.. The boundaries are amorphous.

More amusingly, we should come up with something for The Wire to replace 'eai' with. Hmm...

[p_ano]

taomud?

[jon abbey]

More amusingly, we should come up with something for The Wire to replace 'eai' with. Hmm...

ideally, we should come up with something to replace The Wire.

and, yeah, 'taomud' (the area of music under discussion) was coined to prevent this exact discussion.

[Cornelis]

I think the better musicians have a very long, mature, compex relationship with their chosen instrument. I realize that more and more.
When the apple G3 first became (financially) available, portable, at home etc, this relationship could exist/develope for the first time.

The computer is a fundamentaly different instrument, it calculates and then reproduces, not "storing the food but writing down the recepy".

And what the electric guitar is for rock/pop, the bouzouki for rembetika, the violin for classical music, the saxophone for jazz, etc,
the computer is for EAI.

?

btw
"E" pronounced in english would mean "I" in dutch
"A" pronounced in english would mean "E" in dutch
"I" pronounced in english would mean somethng like "AIJ" in dutch
pff......