the ethics of file-sharing in experimental music

[rainey]

Actually, I think the fact that the BSC release is a book skews the results significantly. I bet that over 90% of orders would be for a physical copy if no book was involved, based on my experience with other releases (Arena Ladridos, for instance, which is available as a download or CD + download for twice the price, pretty much always sells as a CD + download). The book obviously goes a long way towards satisfying the urge for "something to hold" (and books are WAY nicer as objects than CDs, IMO).

[fslmy]

I bought the cdr because if I ever traded the book say 20 years from now the digital files might not be available anymore

[rainey]

I understand, and, to be clear, I wanted to offer it in a number of formats because I want people to enjoy it in a way that makes sense to them. If I thought that a certain format was ridiculous for this release, I wouldn't offer it (it's not on cassette, for instance; and, there's no vinyl largely because it's very difficult to press good, 22 minute sides).

Personally, I'm not a collector of things, and I have a strongly negative reaction to storage-oriented furniture. So, I'm largely happy with downloads. But one of the big losses with downloads, from my point of view, is the experience of walking into a room (a friend's house, a store, etc.), seeing a record, CD, book, whatever, and having that "what is this?" feeling. It's a different approach to something than seeking it out directly or getting a specific recommendation.

[Jesse]

But one of the big losses with downloads, from my point of view, is the experience of walking into a room (a friend's house, a store, etc.), seeing a record, CD, book, whatever, and having that "what is this?" feeling. It's a different approach to something than seeking it out directly or getting a specific recommendation.

this is a huge passing for some of us, as those places and things pass.

[Alastair]

And if I'm going to "pay to play" I'm going to self-release.

Not every musician wants to self-release though.

[Matt Wuethrich]

Actually, I think the fact that the BSC release is a book skews the results significantly. I bet that over 90% of orders would be for a physical copy if no book was involved.

I saw the book as the release actually. It was what got me interested; the music I saw as a kind of a bonus (though I think once I have tome in hand it will seem more integral to the whole package). I don't think I bought an album, at least in the traditional sense of the term.

The only I problem I have with DLs is the playback mediums available. Common PC soundcards and iPods just don't compare with an amplifier. BUT I did recently try out a DAC with a USB connection. 320KB Spotify streams sounded pretty good through loudpspeakers. The tipping point to DLs inches closer and closer.

[jon abbey]

The only I problem I have with DLs is the playback mediums available. Common PC soundcards and iPods just don't compare with an amplifier. BUT I did recently try out a DAC with a USB connection. 320KB Spotify streams sounded pretty good through loudpspeakers. The tipping point to DLs inches closer and closer.

and you can always burn lossless files to CDs and play them through your normal system. if and when David Kirby and I ever get DLs going for Erstwhile, it'll be AIFF only.

[bedouin]

The only I problem I have with DLs is the playback mediums available. Common PC soundcards and iPods just don't compare with an amplifier. BUT I did recently try out a DAC with a USB connection. 320KB Spotify streams sounded pretty good through loudpspeakers. The tipping point to DLs inches closer and closer.

and you can always burn lossless files to CDs and play them through your normal system. if and when David Kirby and I ever get DLs going for Erstwhile, it'll be AIFF only.

Recently I had a test audition of CD playback v. file playback* via the same system (DAC/amp/loudspeakers), and I thought only some bare bones top-loading CD transports could match WAV** playback. I guess the electrical noise added to the audio signal with most CD players plays a part there.

But for me (read old-fashioned here) there are still 2 major issues with file playback.
- Files are here now, gone tomorrow. It takes 2 clicks to get rid of a file.
- I dislike list based UIs, and all PC playback apps are just that. Lists.


*I mean file playback using dedicated units (like the Naim UnitiServe) not using a PC, as the latter introduces significantly more noise to the signal. Though I understand the new mini mac digital output is hifi grade.

** Non compressed WAV and AIFF are essentially the same RIFF (chunk based) format. As long as the audio data is lossless, I don't think it matters what the container format is. What matters is how clean the signal delivered to the DAC stage is.

[Matt Wuethrich]

and you can always burn lossless files to CDs and play them through your normal system.

True, but part of the appeal of high-quality DLs would be NOT having to burn a CD. I'm not so interested in saying one format (physical or otherwise) is superior to another, just looking for a baseline of quality/enjoyment.

[rainey]

I saw the book as the release actually. It was what got me interested; the music I saw as a kind of a bonus (though I think once I have tome in hand it will seem more integral to the whole package). I don't think I bought an album, at least in the traditional sense of the term.

I have lots of (probably really uninteresting) thoughts about this, but I don't want to hijack this thread any further. In summary, I have a very similar feeling, which, from my perspective, doesn't entirely make sense. During the editing process, I was discussing the book with one of the authors, and he said something to the effect of "This book is going to be really great, but the music will be the thing that people can return to for years and years to come." I was somehow surprised to hear this, which was like a double surprise, because I wouldn't have started this project if I didn't feel that way about the music.

The obvious factor is that the book is something relatively unique in this landscape, but I think that our shared perspective on what constitutes this as a "release" also has something to do with the way we value music and the work of the musician (and I'm not necessarily saying that we undervalue these things; more that we express that value differently), which is basically why this thread started in the first place.

[washline]

The only I problem I have with DLs is the playback mediums available. Common PC soundcards and iPods just don't compare with an amplifier. BUT I did recently try out a DAC with a USB connection. 320KB Spotify streams sounded pretty good through loudpspeakers. The tipping point to DLs inches closer and closer.

What I've been reading tells me that hi-rez downloads is the future of music with the exception of course of vinyl and reel-to-reel playback, which still have an avid following in small boutique areas. For these downloads, the possibility of 24/192 sampling rates is a real attraction, which as Bhob noted exceeds the limits of what CD is capable of producing: 16/44. Music servers are obviating the need for high quality transports as well, which means only good quality DACs will become the necessary component. There seems to be much interest in the Meridian Sooloos: http://www.meridian-audio.com/sooloos/ as well as the Devialet system: http://www.devialet.com/

I'm still stuck with the desire for the physical object, but others have been more open to the possibilities of hi-rez downloads. As a result, some very nice CD players are up for sale these days.

[normalioifyp]

I wish I had time to read this whole thread, but ADHD prevents me from reading past page 3. So forgive me if I'm repeating what's already been said.

Illegal downloading is awesome, precisely because it causes labels to lose money.

Whoever said illegal downloading is an "outgrowth of baroque capitalism" should put down the crack pipe. Filesharing in no way resembles a capitalist economy. Infact, it resembles a gift economy. Pirates make files available at no cost in exchange for social rewards and the hope that others will do the same. Musicians like me, who create music and post it free online, work under the same principles.

Unfortunately, technology forced the gift economy on us, and not everyone wins out on that. That's why a lot of people here are pissed, no doubt. You invested good money into running a label, and planed your life with the understanding that you could make a living from art. Then mp3s fucked that up for you. You took that risk when starting a business, though. And nobody said life was fair. Think of all the buggy whip companies who went bankrupt after the invention of the automobile.

Like the buggywhip, record labels are obsolete. Musicians can record, distribute, and promote their own music now. All labels are good for is curating music, and even that's challenged by blogs, social music sites, etc.

But maybe labels were a bad idea to begin with. They never had the best reputation when it came to paying artists, and most of them can't even be trusted to safely look after their own material (since shitty compressed remasters make more money anyway). By subtracting labels from the equation, we're placing control of music back with the artists and fans.

Artists can still make money if they are willing to embrace the digital mindset, and use filesharing as a tool for promoting their live shows. Live performance is how we have always made money, and only a few lucky superstars ever made a living solely off recordings. But even if artists wouldn't make money, it wouldn't be the end of the world. If you're only in it for the money, I don't think you should be an artist in the first place. And for anyone who says they need the money to support their art, look me straight in the eye and tell me you can't make noise if you had a dayjob.

Computers were made to copy information, and as long as we use computers, we'll live with piracy. The question now is: Do you adapt to thrive in the digital gift economy, or do you complain about it from the sidelines.

For the love of fuck: http://creativecommons.org/

[fslmy]

but no one can deny the beauty and appeal of a high quality cd/lp with excellent packaging, come on now.

what is starting to upset me are the stories of CDr's failing in 10 years even with proper storage, what is the point of even making them if that is to be the case?

[jon abbey]

I can't even begin to fathom how much less interesting I'd personally find music over the past 50 years if labels didn't exist. I loved labels way before I ever started one myself, it's the very rare great musician who is as good at making records as they are at making music.

[simon reynell]

what is starting to upset me are the stories of CDr's failing in 10 years even with proper storage, what is the point of even making them if that is to be the case?

As I said in another thread yesterday, http://ihatemusic.noquam.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7574, if you use cheap / rubbish CDRs, then their lifetime is going to be very limited, but if you use high quality discs, they will last for ages. In fact I've just now listened to a lovely CDR from 1998 - Assumed Possibilities (Burn / Davies / Durrant / Wastell) on Confront - and it plays beautifully, and I'm sure it will still do so in another 14 years. Doubtless there are cases of cheaply made discs failing, but the internet's very good at exaggerating things and setting up little panics.

Re normalioifyp's points....hmmm. I think you'll find that 99% of the people who set up labels in this area of music aren't planning to make any kind of living from it, and in fact are realistic enough to expect to have to subsidise it. But yeah, let's be radical: let's OCCUPY#ERSTWHILE and all share mp3s of their discs. That'll teach the bastards, and will really help the music prosper and survive!
In fact I half agree with your statement that "The question now is: Do you adapt to thrive in the digital gift economy, or do you complain about it from the sidelines", but for heaven's sake....

[jon abbey]

yeah, it's not like this is new, I've been dealing with these issues since before starting Erstwhile in 1998.

[normalioifyp]

I can't even begin to fathom how much less interesting I'd personally find music over the past 50 years if labels didn't exist. I loved labels way before I ever started one myself, it's the very rare great musician who is as good at making records as they are at making music.

My point, however, is that your nostalgia for a label-run music economy doesn't justify reversing decades of technological progress. I'd guess a majority of folks today couldn't care less where their music came from.

I also disagree with your assertion that labels are better at making records. Have you seen the crap major labels have been pushing the last 2 decades? The audio quality is atrocious, compressed to shit, and overproduced. Not to mention, the tracklist is always filled with fillers. Most labels don't know how to record music, and they don't know how to pick which songs go on an album. I've heard superior results from small DIY releases. If small labels like yours avoid these common pitfalls of other labels, it's because you are smaller, and closer to DIY than the big labels.

Re normalioifyp's points....hmmm. I think you'll find that 99% of the people who set up labels in this area of music aren't planning to make any kind of living from it, and in fact are realistic enough to expect to have to subsidise it.

If that's the case, they why are they complaining? Even without piracy, you wouldn't be making money from your music. So what's the difference if you give it away for free?

But yeah, let's be radical: let's OCCUPY#ERSTWHILE and all share mp3s of their discs. That'll teach the bastards, and will really help the music prosper and survive!

No, lets not be radical. Let's be realistic. People are going to share your music whether you like it or not. All I'm saying is, music will survive without your label. So instead of complaining, deal with it.

[jon abbey]

it's really not nostalgia, and no one's talking about reversing anything.

and I'm obviously not talking about major labels, who I agree bring virtually nothing to the table in terms of new music at this point.

[normalioifyp]

it's really not nostalgia, and no one's talking about reversing anything.

and I'm obviously not talking about major labels, who I agree bring virtually nothing to the table in terms of new music at this point.

So then what are you complaining about? Small labels like yours don't care about money, so they aren't going to disappear off the face of the earth because mp3s made it harder to profit from music.

Perhaps your objecting to my criticism of labels? I believe what I said. We don't need them. I've heard small label releases and I've heard solo DIY releases, and I don't notice a difference in quality. Labels can curate music, and help promote it, but their role in the music world is getting smaller and smaller.

[jon abbey]

maybe you can read the whole thread sometime when you manage to summon up the attention span to do so, since some of us have put a lot of effort into earlier posts already.

and yes, music will survive no matter what. if all guitars were destroyed tomorrow never to be replaced, music would also survive, but that wouldn't make it a positive development.