Why aren't there more women involved in this music ?

[ryan]

I found a parallel argument at Autodesk forum, a discussion on the under representation of women in Civil Engineering. Interestingly, most of the responses there were from women, but then there's this:

"Civil Engineering favors those who have better spacial reasoning and math skills. Biologically, men are better suited to this."

So, apparently, women in engineering and experimental music are fortunate enough to have overcome their inherent biological handicaps.

Its hard for me to understand why I'd need to argue so persistently against that rationale. It's little better than "scientific" racism. Yes, there is difference, but in this case clearly difference is being reduced and presented as a lack and a shortcoming, which is very typically chauvinist.

[jon abbey]

i must live in one too, then, because i don't really see a whole lot of sexism in the medium either. i'm curious about examples of the perceived sexism.

Vanessa, there was some stuff in this thread that got a little hairy--maybe the argument got too heated for a minute, but there's something gender-related going on, no doubt. (And in passing, as I look through the archives--wow, lots of great threads way back when).

interesting to look at that 4 1/2 years later, Bill A said then:

"One almost never talks about Ami or Sachiko without talking about their attractiveness. "

I didn't think that was especially true then, but it's certainly not true now, as I haven't heard anyone comment along those lines in years.

[will]

I found a parallel argument at Autodesk forum, a discussion on the under representation of women in Civil Engineering. Interestingly, most of the responses there were from women, but then there's this:

"Civil Engineering favors those who have better spacial reasoning and math skills. Biologically, men are better suited to this."

So, apparently, women in engineering and experimental music are fortunate enough to have overcome their inherent biological handicaps.

Its hard for me to understand why I'd need to argue so persistently against that rationale. It's little better than "scientific" racism. Yes, there is difference, but in this case clearly difference is being reduced and presented as a lack and a shortcoming, which is very typically chauvinist.

It's also being presented, like Larry Summers' musings about women in math and science, in terms of superficial social phenomena resting atop a brute, monocausal entity called "biology", which is assumed to produce all the variation that we see. Like Murray and Herrenstein's "The Bell Curve", this works really, really well if you choose to completely ignore all historical, social, cultural, and economic factors that are at work in a given situation.
Given that humans, as a species, have the ability to consciously generate behavioral adaptations, and to communicate these adaptations, there's no such thing as an acultural human, and thus no set of controls that could perfectly isolate the biological. The "male brain / female brain" stuff is to no small extent a fantasy, social differences dressed up as "biological realities".

[jkudler]

[SoundChaser]

not sure I got all that, but if what we're talking about as far as "this music" roughly coincides with EAI, it's not an especially Western-centric music, it has roughly equal roots in Europe and Tokyo (and AMM had quite a bit of Eastern influence early on too).

Sorry for the fuzziness of my original post. Let me phrase my thoughts more concisely:

- Western Civilizations were more prominent in the development of certain forms / genres of music, including what we term as EAI.
- Comparing the lack of production of two different groups such as Africa and females is a like comparing apples and oranges. The factors that play into the lack of African EAI vs. Female EAI are extremely different, such that a common basis for comparison cannot really be found (IMO).
- Just in the question of "Why isn't there much (any?) African EAI?" is frought with problems of definition based on the fact that we take our own social, cultural, economic, etc. biases into the framework for examing the question.

My point was that trying to draw a parallel between African and female EAI only seems to be valuable because the current status appears to be the same. However, the factors that go into such an examination should make it clear that there is a huge difference between the two questions.

Hopefully that makes more sense.

[franz bieberkopf]

Part of the impetus behind Her Jazz (as dictated by members with whom i'm acquainted, and not guessed at by me) has to do with creating a comfortable space for experimentation for burgeoning female performers (musicians/non-musicians/dancers/etc.).

i'm not sure i understand why fledgling female improvisers would or are supposed to feel more "comfortable" in an all-female environment. i'm not trying to be contrarian, but what difference does it make? it feels patronizing to me that women would need to segregate themselves in order to feel comfortable performing.

in general, i don't think female improvisers are "supposed" to feel anything. in this particular instance, a group of female musicians of various skill levels decided for themselves that this was a context that would be useful to them. several of them are more than comfortable in other contexts and are very much accomplished in their own right.
i have had precisely this conversation w/r/t/ ghettotisation of what they're up to along gender lines with my friend, who is one of the founding members, and she agrees with me (and you).
whether or not this gender based sentiment was legitimate for all participants involved, for me the results remain, by and large, positive. as an audience member, i've had the chance to see a loose group of musicians develop a language that is not unique to them or "female improvisation" with which i am familiar, but is quite often unique to the mixed-genre context in which they exist, here in vancouver. it's an off-the-cuff comparison to be sure, but they've come across to me at times sounding a bit like what i used to really dig about old off-site/bar aoyama stuff... which when often flanked at shows by hardcore or noise outfits with little sense of dynamics is pretty refreshing, i don't mind saying, even if these girls occasionally seem a bit aimless in terms of the structures of their performances...

[sarahelockhart]

I found a parallel argument at Autodesk forum, a discussion on the under representation of women in Civil Engineering. Interestingly, most of the responses there were from women, but then there's this:

"Civil Engineering favors those who have better spacial reasoning and math skills. Biologically, men are better suited to this."

Because it is extremely rare to find people doing things to which to they aren't suited. Hardly anyone persists at things they aren't "inherently" good at. Nope, never.

[bryan]

I found a parallel argument at Autodesk forum, a discussion on the under representation of women in Civil Engineering. Interestingly, most of the responses there were from women, but then there's this:

"Civil Engineering favors those who have better spacial reasoning and math skills. Biologically, men are better suited to this."

So, apparently, women in engineering and experimental music are fortunate enough to have overcome their inherent biological handicaps.

Its hard for me to understand why I'd need to argue so persistently against that rationale. It's little better than "scientific" racism. Yes, there is difference, but in this case clearly difference is being reduced and presented as a lack and a shortcoming, which is very typically chauvinist.

That last line is on point, and I didn't want to amputate it from its context.

I for one am glad that females and males have differences that extend beyond the exterior. Let's set aside biology vs. culture because it doesn't seem like the real problem lies in tracing where a character came from, but much more in how a difference could be perceived as weakness. After all, it's not that you can offer the same damn thing as everyone else... I want to know how the differences in how you see the world can broaden my perspective and vice versa. That's how we're both stronger (by both I mean for peoples' differences in general, not just male/female)

Given that, sexism exists and surely experimental music has its share of shortcomings though maybe not to the same degree as other areas, say... hair metal or something.

I like to think barriers are still being broken down and there might be some hand wringing today, but good stuff happening down the road. As an example, I'm in school for geology and it has been a pleasant surprise (surprise due to my sexism, I suppose, ha) that there are ~40% females in the program. You know, it just seems like a "manly" discipline, right? Accordingly, the women have had to face skepticism and obstacles that I don't. That's not right. However, I can see how this will change as the old guard (Dr. E*****d, I see you) gets phased out.

The best thing about this thread (which could have been a train wreck) has been a greater participation by women.

[3um]

interesting to look at that 4 1/2 years later, Bill A said then:

"One almost never talks about Ami or Sachiko without talking about their attractiveness. "

I didn't think that was especially true then, but it's certainly not true now, as I haven't heard anyone comment along those lines in years.

she looks like a teddy bear, so adorable. i like her style!

about Ami Yoshida, from "AMPLIFY 2008: light" topic.

[mudd]

re: women in engineering, my chemical engineering graduating classes (grad and undergrad, at different schools in different countries) were both just slightly over 50% women. the top students were female, too. my school may have been unusual, but bioengineering classes routinely have similar ratios.

civil engineering is just generally not a very popular field among starting students these days, nothing to do with the spacial reasoning or math. the department at my grad school got suspended for a year because they couldn't recruit an incoming class. a close friend of mine who finished in that department despaired not because she couldn't find work, but because she found the work available terribly unappealing (and decided to return to school for architecture). add to that other social factors like lack of role models, an aging peer base, and competition with a closely related fields with much more appeal to students today (environmental engineering or architecture) and it's hardly a surprise that the ratio of women in the field remains low.

which is all very anecdotal, but the point is that there are plenty of reasons to question the introduction of "biology" to that argument, and correspondingly similar arguments in parallel situations. this is not suggestion that sexism has been eliminated, or even that there is a measure of equality in place. only that there are lots of other answers to this set of questions.

m

[ryan]

but the point is that there are plenty of reasons to question the introduction of "biology" to that argument, and correspondingly similar arguments in parallel situations. this is not suggestion that sexism has been eliminated, or even that there is a measure of equality in place. only that there are lots of other answers to this set of questions.

true that.

[Jacques Oger]

FYI, there is a list on Clare Cooper's site. http://gutstring.net/


************************
I’ve heard there’s a shortage of female improvisors…

(In no particular order) I have compiled a list of names and websites where you can listen these artists. I often hear curators/organisers say that there aren’t many women involved in improvised music or that they have difficulty finding them. Statistically, women are less likely to approach festivals and events with their work, but that doesn’t mean that they are not making some of the most kick ass sound around. Enjoy the music, and add to the list!

Clare
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Magda Mayas (Berlin) Piano myspace.com
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Sabine Voegel (Berlin/Potsdam) Flute, electronics http://www.sabvog.de
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Manon Liu-Winter (Vienna) piano http://www.manonliuwinter.at
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Anat Cohavi (Berlin/Tel Aviv) Reeds http://www.anat-cohavi.com
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Susanna Gartmayer (Vienna) Clarinet :more here
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Jasmine Guffond (Berlin/Sydney) guitar, voice myspace.com/minitmusic
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Andrea Neumann (Berlin) Inside Piano http://www.japanimprov.com
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Angharad Davies (London) Violin http://www.angharaddavies.com
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Helena Gough (London) sound artist http://www.helenagough.net/
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Sachiko M (Tokyo) feedback http://www.japanimprov.com
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Andrea Ermke (Berlin) samples, field recordings
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Sabine Ercklentz (Berlin) trumpet
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Ami Yoshida (Tokyo) voice http://www.japanimprov.com
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Emmanuelle Pellegrini (Metz) text, performance myspace.com/emmanuellepellegrini
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Christine Sehnaoui (Paris/Beirut) saxophone myspace.com/christinesehnaoui
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Annette Krebs (Berlin) Guitar and electronics http://www.myspace.com/sberk1
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Anne LaBerge (Amsterdam) electronics, flute http://www.annelaberge.com/
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Mary Oliver (Amsterdam) violin, viola, hardanger fiddle magpiemusicdance.com
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Felicity Proven (Amsterdam/Melbourne) Cornet
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Steffi Weismann (Berlin) http://www.myspace.com/steffiweismann
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Sophie Agnel (Paris) http://sophieagnel.free.fr/
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Birgit Uhler (Hamburg) trumpet
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Billy Roisz (Vienna) laptop + video billyroisz.klingt.org/
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Sylvia Faessler (Vienna) Laptop skylla.klingt.org/
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Margareth Kammerer (Berlin) voice, guitar, poetry http://www.myspace.com
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Asi Foecker (Berlin) voice, guitar http://www.myspace.com
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Elisabeth Harnik (Vienna) Piano
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Fernanda Farah (Berlin) voice, accordion http://www.myspace.com
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Merle Bennett (Berlin) drums http://www.myspace.com
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Gunda Gottschalk (Wuppertal) violin, viola http://www.gunda-gottschalk.de
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Ute Volker (Wuppertal) accordion http://www.utevoelker.de
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Stevie Wishart (Brussels) hurdy gurdy, voice, electronics
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Kaffe Matthews (London) http://www.annetteworks.com
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Joelle Leandre (Paris) double bass
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Helene Breschand (Paris) harp
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Rosalind Hall (Melbourne) reeds
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Carolyn Connors (Melbourne) voice, ukelele http://www.myspace.com
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Hollis Taylor (Blue Mountains/Sydney) violin, birdcalls
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Louise Currem (Sydney) film
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Joyce Hinterding (Blue Mountains/Sydney) Antennae, phenomena and more… http://www.sunvalleyresearch.com/
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Amanda Stewart (Sydney) Poet, voice :more here
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Camilla Hannan (Melbourne) field recordings http://www.camillahannan.com/
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Milica Stefanovic (Sydney) electric bass + Splinter Orchestra
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Monica Brooks (Sydney) accordion, piano, electronics + Splinter Orchestra
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Emily Morandini (Sydney) electronics, found objects, field recordings
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Thembi Soddell (sampler) awesome shit. cajid.com/thembi/
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Natasha Anderson (Melbourne) recorder cajid.com/artists
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Vanessa Tomlinson (Brisbane) Percussion http://www.clockedout.org/
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Anthea Caddy (Melbourne/Berlin) Cello myspace.com
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Karen Brooks (Sydney) saxophone + Splinter Orchestra
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Cass McGlynn (Blue Mountains/Sydney) french horn + Splinter Orchestra
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Ai Yamamoto (Melbourne) lap-top + video composer myspace.com
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Satsuki Odamura (Sydney) kick ass Koto improviser satsukikoto.com.au/
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Sandy Evans (Sydney) saxophone http://www.jazz-planet.com
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Natalia Mann (Melbourne/Istanbul) harp and voice myspace.com
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Sue Harding (Wagga Wagga ) Dot matrix printers http://www.abc.net.au/arts/adlib/
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Rosie Dennis (Sydney) performance, voice, text. Awesome. http://www.suture.com.au
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Jo Truman (Sydney) voice :more
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Marilyn Crispell (Woodstock) piano http://www.marilyncrispell.com
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Anne LeBaron (Valencia CA) harp http://www.annelebaron.com
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Mary Halvorson (New York) guitar http://www.maryhalvorson.com
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Jessica Pavone (New York) viola http://www.jessicapavone.com
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Marina Rosenfeld (New York) turntables… http://www.marinarosenfeld.com
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Pauline Oliveros http://www.deeplistening.org/pauline/
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Amina Claudine Myers myspace.com
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Maggie Nicols voice wiki/Maggie_Nicols
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Ikue Mori (New York) electronics http://www.ikuemori.com
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Zeena Parkins (New York) harp, electronics http://www.zeenaparkins.com
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Magarida Garcia (New York/Lisbon) electric upright bass MORE
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Catherine Pancake (Baltimore) dry ice wiki/Catherine_Pancake
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Audrey Chen (Baltimore) cello, voice http://www.audreychen.com
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Bonny Jones (Baltimore) electronics myspace.com
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Susie Ibarra (New York) drums http://www.susieibarra.com
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Rosie Hertlein (Staten Is.) voice
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LaDonna Smith (Birmingham) viola myspace.com
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Liz Tonne (Boston) voice http://www.liztonne.com
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Rose Hammer (Baltimore) baritone sax
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..
Melissa Moore (Baltimore) inventions, clarinet
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..
Carly Ptak (Baltimore) performance
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..
Erell Latimier (Nante, France) Voice, Electronics http://www.antboymusic.com/
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..
Nusch Werchowska (Rennes, France) piano myspace
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..
Christine Wodrascka (Toulouse, France) piano
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..
Soizic Lebrat (Nantes, France) cello myspace
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..
Martine Altenburger (cello) France
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..
Katharina Klement (Vienna) http://katharinaklement.com
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..
Maja Osojnik (Vienna) http://majaosojnik.com
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..
Angelica Castello (Vienna) http://castello.klingt.org
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..
Kirsten Bradley (Sydney) video http://www.cicada.tv/
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..
Gail Priest (Sydney) Laptop, violin http://www.snagglepussy.net/
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..
The Thaw (Sydney) seriously great punk rock / improv http://www.thethaw.blogspot.com
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..
Sherre DeLys (Sydney) sound artist http://www.sounddesign.unimelb.edu.au/
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..
Sarah Last (Wagga Wagga) space-program.org/
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..
Sally Golding (Brisbane) live film http://www.otherfilm.org/
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Donna Hewitt (Brisbane) voice, eMic
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..

[Dohol]

An impressive list..

[simon reynell]

Jacques Oger wrote: " and add to the list!"

Just some others off the top of my head:

Vanessa Rossetto (Texas) violin

Tisha Mukarji (Copenhagen) inside piano

Samantha Rebello (London) flute

Sainko Namchylak (?) voice

Tara Stuckey (London) clarinet

Charlotte Hug (Switzerland) viola

Caroline Kraabel (London) alto sax

Gail Brand (London) trombone

Ruth Barberan (Barcelona) trumpet

Viv Corringham (USA) voice

Sylvia Hallett (London) violin, electronics etc


I'm sure plenty of others will come to mind later. A lot of activity, a lot of creativity, a lot of promise for the future.

[RFKorp]

Also, the first couple I thought of not on the list:

Birgit Ulher (Berlin) trumpet
Anne Guthrie (NYC) french horn

[bonniejones]

I'm reading this thread with some interest - since as Joe mentioned - gender politics in avant garde art is something I'm actively engaged in as an organizer. It's taking me some time to get through it all - so I'll reserve much comment until later - but I have to say - as perhaps one of few women reading this thread - if you're looking to understand why women are less involved in these communities - this quote from the thread ought to shed some light - ouch guys - this is a big turnoff.

Women are, generally, more interested in producing biological offspring than in cultural offspring.

Add to that any generalized statement about women not having an interest in or biology equipped for analytical thinking and I'm pretty much out the door.

Thanks for posting that list from Clare's site.

[tadk]

and

Alessandra Rombolá (Madrid) - flutes
http://www.alessandrarombola.com/index.html

Anna Zaradny (Szczecin) - saxophone, laptop
http://www.musicagenera.net/

[p_ano]

Women are, generally, more interested in producing biological offspring than in cultural offspring.

Add to that any generalized statement about women not having an interest in or biology equipped for analytical thinking and I'm pretty much out the door.

schiksalgemeinschaft likes being inflammatory. his views do not reflect the views of the rest of the board.

[bryan]

Women are, generally, more interested in producing biological offspring than in cultural offspring.

Add to that any generalized statement about women not having an interest in or biology equipped for analytical thinking and I'm pretty much out the door.

schiksalgemeinschaft likes being inflammatory. his views do not reflect the views of the rest of the board.

indeed. though schik does have some thoughtful things to say, that certainly wasn't one of them!!

[jpeatt]

Yeah, I should have mentioned Clare, and now feel remiss for doing so. She was a really Vital presence in Australia for a good while, both as a player and organiser.
She seems to be doing really well in Berlin, though.

Lots of good friends of mine on that list.