Why aren't there more women involved in this music ?

[jpeatt]

maybe they prefer to stay somewhat behind the scenes more than men on average (thinking of Sachiko with Otomo and Yuko with myself, and I'm sure others I just don't realize)?

I'd agree with this, to an extent. I know quite a few women (including my own girlfriend- who has housed and fed many a weary traveller) who are interested in this music, and do radio, help put on gigs, etc etc, but don't play. In one particular case, it frustrates me greatly. A very good friend of mine, who has on many non consecutive occasions complained about the 'boys club' aspect of experimental music, has a sound knowledge of both the history & current practice of this music and a grasp of technology that would allow her to easily start producing work. She doesn't, and won't make her reasoning clear for not doing so - but continues to complain.

....Sachiko's quartets: with Fennesz, Otomo, Pita in the Cologne 2004 AMPLIFY (released as ErstLive 004), the just released Balloon and Needle with Otomo, Choi Joonyong, Hong Chulki and of course the ErstLive 005 show with Keith, Toshi and Otomo, each time with three men who are usually happy to explore the noisiest, most stereotypical "male" areas of improv. in each case, without any discussion beforehand (well, in the German two at least, dunno about the other), Sachiko's was pretty obviously the primary guiding aesthetic. after the Cologne set, I told Pita I was shocked he could play that subdued, I really expected that set to be a blowout, but that's how powerful her aesthetic can be.

I'd attribute that more to the aesthetic itself than her gender (not to say you were doing so).

[jon abbey]

I was just saying that it's the exact opposite of "might makes right", since she's a tiny woman surrounded by three larger men in each case.

[jon abbey]

so Yuko just told me she checked out at least some of this thread on her own, and she has something to add that I've coincidentally also been thinking about the last couple of days.

speaking just about EAI, she and I both think that the most interesting musicians taken as a group are closer to gender balanced, and that OK or mediocre or shitty musicians tend to be much more overwhelmingly male.

so maybe women tend to have a better sense of whether they actually have talent worth sharing with other people or not? dunno, but since she and I had a similar thought independently, I thought I'd share. I know that in Julien's special world, we're all equally blessed with talent, but that's not the case in my reality.

[jkudler]

"julien's special world," mondays at 8, on pbs.

[schiksalgemeinschaft]

Women are, generally, more interested in producing biological offspring than in cultural offspring.

No matter what hormonal generalities you can make, you can't leap to the assumption that biology favors reproduction over creativity as if they were mutually exclusive.

Never said they were fully exclusive, but it's reasonable to say that if you spend more time with your children, you spend less time doing something else. And I think reproduction is a form of creativity as well, so I think you interpret my initial statement differently than I do, although I clearly used the same word "offspring" in both cases.

Men have just as much of a primal urge to procreate, they just have more of an ability to evade the consequent responsibilities. Surely biology is a factor, but not in the way you suggest above.

So, we agree it's a factor. In which way you think it that factor works, and how would you say I suggest it to work?

Quit pretending that you are defending scientific objectivity as if you're an expert on the subject.

Sorry if I gave that impression. I thought I was just expressing some general insights, and some facts that specialized persons could easily falsify it they would be wrong, nothing specialized though, I'm sure no biologist.

I've mainly just raised some questions and pointed at some factors that weren't mentioned in this thread before I introduced them. I hardly read real objections to actual things I say, just some dismissals of crude, general, mostly inaccurate representations of a hastly fabricated sum of my words, instead of the words (sentences) themselves.


Btw, can someone please explain what the difference between a man and a women, as implied in the question, is in the first place?

[schiksalgemeinschaft]

At this point, I'd like to propose a complentary answer to the initial question.

Because, generally, women still suffer a bit of a handicap from a social system, especially if you judge it from a male perspective - although it should be noted that the system and the possibilities for women (but also for men, albeit differently of course) have been changing radically for decades now, mostly for the better.

[mudd]

Btw, can someone please explain what the difference between a man and a women, as implied in the question, is in the first place?

which man and which woman?

m

[schiksalgemeinschaft]

which man and which woman?

those implied in the thread's title question.

[mudd]

well then the difference is, one group isn't involved in "this music".

m

[schiksalgemeinschaft]

Okay, so Sachiko, Anette and compagny are not women, fair enough.

What about the difference between Adam & Eve?

[mudd]

spelling and mythology.

m

[schiksalgemeinschaft]

yeah and probably the spelling is a result of the mythology. if they haven't had a hysterectomy.

[skrobek]

maybe women tend to have a better sense of whether they actually have talent worth sharing with other people or not? dunno, but since she and I had a similar thought independently, I thought I'd share.

Jon, I find this very interesting.

Maybe they are less encouraged to think they have talent at this ?

[jon abbey]

I don't think there's much encouragement for anyone in this music, male or female. pretty much no one cares.

[skrobek]

I don't think there's much encouragement for anyone in this music, male or female. pretty much no one cares.

what I meant by "this" was: innovative.

[skrobek]

Somebody sent me this article:

http://www.cut-up.com/news/detail.php?sid=334

about women in electronic musics.

[niwi]

I don't think there's much encouragement for anyone in this music, male or female. pretty much no one cares.

ain't that the truth.

i think a more important question than the one in the thread title is "why aren't there more people involved in this music?"

[sarahelockhart]

it always depends on how widely one is defining "this music"

Yeah, I was biting my tongue, or rather stepping on my hands, but if you open the discussion to proper/contemporary noise, there's no end to the women in audiences, I've noticed, and the percentage involved in creation is similarly amplified.. Some may just play a really small show or two, but they're there!

I do get the sense that in the SF Bay Area, where horaflora and I both live, that there is more gender equity in experimental music/improv than in many other places. I think perhaps this is because there are more permeable genre boundaries, rather than tight-knit sub-scenes that tend to corelate w/ a "boys club" mentality, and also be composed predominantly of men. I think our scene is more social and "fun," and more encouraging of participation and accepting of people trying out new things. Granted, this is likely to lead to a higher chaff/wheat ratio in terms of quality, but I think it encourages continuous development and less staleness, and less "here are the usual suspects playing with the usual suspects in the audience." It also helps that a significant number of people move here for the experimental music scene - and Mills College plays a significant role there.

But perhaps, it just feels like there is a higher percentage of women involved because there is a larger number of people involved, period. It probably is less than 20%, but that raises the issue of how you come up with that number in the first place.

As far as Jon/Yuko's theory of women being more concerned with with whether they have something of worth to contribute (i.e. talent, quality), I think there's something to that. I know I think that way. I think that's more a case of contending with historical discrimination than genetic gender traits.

[p_ano]

i look through my collection and i see many women, but i rarely think to myself, "that's a female musician." the music exists outside of gender, or race, age, etc... or the music can encompass all of these things. maybe the music is gender. it can be whatever really, the listener ultimately decides.

and, why aren't there more women involved in this music? well, there are many, but unfortunately they are outnumbered by fanboys who hear a few avant-garde records and decide they should start a label.

[p_ano]

so maybe women tend to have a better sense of whether they actually have talent worth sharing with other people or not? dunno, but since she and I had a similar thought independently, I thought I'd share. I know that in Julien's special world, we're all equally blessed with talent, but that's not the case in my reality.

andrea and i also had this thought independently yesterday. weird.