the demise of ihm?

[simon reynell]

I just saw a discussion on Facebook with various people talking about the decline and possible demise of ihm and speculating on the reasons for it.
Any thoughts?

[Dan Warburton]

Facebook, c'est quoi ça?

[jon abbey]

a lot of the reasons are given in the FB discussion, but also I think there is still the occasional good thread here, like last year's AMPLIFY thread, once the fest got going especially:

http://ihatemusic.noquam.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6664

interactive discussion seems to have mostly moved to FB and Twitter (where I primarily interact with Robert hatta these days, for instance) and a bit on Google+. as I said in the FB thread, comments on Richard and Brian's blogs have also slowed to a trickle in recent months.

[fslmy]

with all these private forums, its no wonder the music has a next to non existent audience

[jon abbey]

I don't think there's much of a connection there, 6500 people DLd Songs About Nothing from what.cd last week when it was on freeleech.

[Dan Warburton]

A recent traumatic visit to the Sistine Chapel in Rome, during which I watched with mounting homicidal rage as a twit(ter) obscured my view of the ceiling by taking a photograph of it with his iPad and then posted it immediately on Facebook ("Yo, I'm in the Sistine Chapel, dude!"), has only reinforced my determination to stay away from FB and Twitter as long as I can. I know, I know, there's plenty of cool stuff etc etc, but.. no. I regret the demise of long combative threads like the ones we used to have here - we don't hear much from negative potential anymore (nice to see his post on the Guitar thread), F&P has disappeared into the shadows of moderatordom (the only way to elicit a response from him would be to post another one of my seemingly gratuitously sexist jibes over at IHF), Skrobek is long gone - but I wonder if that's not because the music, and the discussion thereof, has settled down into comfortable, yes, orthodoxy. It's a shame there aren't more snarky putdown reviews (thinking of Adam Hill's misguided potshots at EAI on Bags, Chris Kelsey's withering review of Bertrand Gauguet's etwa on OFN, both ages ago..) to stimulate some good honest discussion. Here is not the place, though, it seems - which is understandable given the editorial stance on all things Wandelweiser (how dare anyone lob a spitball as such a great guy as Michael Pisaro - I'm not being ironic here - when his music is so actively championed / marketed by Jon). I don't feel like opening up the Wandelweiser wormcan now, not until I've heard and digested Simon's box, but I might have something to say about it in a couple of weeks. Here, not on Facebook. As for Richard and Brian's blogs, well, I found it rather dismal and depressing that neither of these chaps, who are it goes without saying on the cutting edge of writing about this area of music, couldn't be more overtly critical of Tilbury's recent disappointing Bocian / Bolt LP. The conclusion I draw is that anything John puts out must be wonderful, simply because it's John. That's a remark addressed more to them, of course, as neither posts very much if at all here anymore (though they lurk), but I sense the same kind of comfortable numbness here. And I think that's as much due to the relative lack of danger and risk in the music as it is to anything else.

[jon abbey]

there is no demise, by the way. IHM isn't going anywhere, and the only time that was broached in the initial FB thread, it was quickly corrected. a misleading title that should be changed/fixed...

[Matt Wuethrich]

And I think that's as much due to the relative lack of danger and risk in the music as it is to anything else.

As much as these meta-threads quickly get tedious, I have to question this comment a bit. How can music have "danger and risk", Dan? What does that even mean? Danger of what? Are we talking aesthetically? Socially? Politically? Give us an example of music that has "danger and risk" in it. I'm sure I've made comments in my reviewing at some point about music having genuine risk, but when I stop to consider it for a moment, I'm not sure why "danger and risk" in music is inherently a good thing.

[fslmy]

isn't it obvious? danger and risk that your work will be made a laughing stock of, or alienate you, or written off?

my problem with facebook is its so damn chummy

[Dan Warburton]

Agree with that, but yes, I see your point Matt. Especially since the album I've been enjoying lately, the new Fagen, is neither dangerous nor risky in that it doesn't do anything other than what you'd expect it to do: provide yet another collection of exquisitely crafted pop songs on tired old themes long familiar to Dan fans. So I'm obviously applying some dubious double standards here when I say I like my improvised music to go in unexpected directions. Shouldn't say "improvised" either - I wouldn't describe Songs for Nothing as improv, but hell it takes my breath away every time I listen to it. Same - in a more subtle way - with Pisaro / Tsunoda. Have also recently enjoyed the two discs Jonas Kocher sent me on Insubordinations, if that's of any interest.

[Charon]

- but I wonder if that's not because the music, and the discussion thereof, has settled down into comfortable, yes, orthodoxy.

This is exactly the thought that popped into my head when I read the start of this thread earlier. I do strongly suspect this to be a significant reason, even though there may well be others operating alongside it. I imagine some here will disagree with this, and I've neither the time nor the desire to get into another 'combative thread' over it (although I'll happily read one, if it develops), but it seems to me to be pretty clear.

[Dan Bennett]

Could it be in part because so many people here know "this music", are to some degree immersed in it and have internalised the critical expectations that come with it?
Where the music is new (in the sense that critical expectations are for a while at least uncertain) , or finds a new audience - even just a couple of people who take it up enthusiastically on their own terms - then you get the kind of productive "misunderstandings" and "misinterpretations" that give discussion energy.

We've started talking about Wandelweiser and similar aesthetics on bangthebore.org, and most of us involved lack a great deal in the way of background and experience with the music - but it's been an interesting discussion. Possibly a lot of things got said that would seem dumb or naive here, but I think the discussion was interesting.
I think there's a value in being allowed to be a bit naive/wrong about things, and the possibility for that diminishes as everybody involved learns more about it and comes to a kind of understanding.
In no way a criticism of IHM - just an impression.

[Matt Wuethrich]

isn't it obvious? danger and risk that your work will be made a laughing stock of, or alienate you, or written off?

So the "danger and risk" is all personal, only for the artist involved?

my problem with facebook is its so damn chummy

I wonder how much the change of tone comes from the fact that we all can't be quite as anonymous on Facebook? I have to be me, you have to be you.

I like my improvised music to go in unexpected directions. Shouldn't say "improvised" either –.

But isn't the danger here that "danger and risk" just becomes a stand-in for a continuous search for novelty? I liked the quote from Cage that Jesse used here in a crow post in August. Maybe "new unknown" is just a poetic way of talking about novelty, but I think a case can be made that a novelty has to be unique, while "the unknown" is under no such pressure. It can be something that has been present all along, but which we just haven't noticed.

Songs for Nothing

Good example. This definitely was a blast of fresh air. Ironic that it's framed in a way that so heavily references a past genre.

takes my breath away every time I listen to it

Agreed that this is something to search for, but isn't this setting the bar rather high? If we make this our criteria, it has a way of making everything fall short and hence seem bland or dull. For example, I love a lot of Giuseppe Ielasi puts out on his Senufo label. I wouldn't say that any of them are masterpieces but for me they reveal a bit of that "unknown" mentioned above.

[Matt Wuethrich]

I've neither the time nor the desire to get into another 'combative thread' over it (although I'll happily read one, if it develops).

Maybe this is the real reason for the lack of discussion --- too many lurkers and not enough active haters (including myself here!)

[mudd]

is there really anyone here whose opinions you cannot adequately guess?

i can have all these threads in my head.

m

[bryan]

So is it too late to anonymously try on new names and opinions, appear naive, and not feel pressure to put on the best face ?

[Dan Warburton]

So the "danger and risk" is all personal, only for the artist involved?

It may be for the artist, may be for the listener. I'm sure Misha Mengelberg knows exactly what he's doing when he sticks spokes in other people's wheels, but it's a surprise for me. And, to take an opposite example, I suspect Steve Beresford does everything possible to surprise himself while playing but the result can often sound rathey samey (Foxes Fox..).

isn't the danger here that "danger and risk" just becomes a stand-in for a continuous search for novelty?

That, I would say, depends on who's playing. I know plenty of musicians who still abide by the old Make It New maxim, sure. But thinking of Mengelberg again, within quite strictly prescribed limits, there's a lot of room for the unexpected (danger, if you will).

takes my breath away every time I listen to it

Agreed that this is something to search for, but isn't this setting the bar rather high?

Absolutely. I believe we should set the bar high, as listeners, musicians, label managers and crrrritics. One is often disappointed, but that's the way it goes.

[Uroboros]

Well, I really hope the forum isn't dying. It's been my main source of information for *this* music (and other music too occasionally) for many years now - not to mention movies (I'd say at this point Dan's recommendations are just about the only ones I can take seriously when it comes to film). I don't post here because most of the time I don't feel I have anything of substance to add, but I check this place every day. More genuine dialogue is always welcome (I love reading through the long threads), but the "now playing"/"forthcoming releases" threads are just as useful to me.

I am on Facebook and I've made friends with and/or subscribed to people like Richard, Brian, Jesse, M. Pisaro - but I don't really see how I could follow a discussion over there like I would on IHM. After all, I can't just go around Facebook adding everyone who posts here if I don't know them personally. And whatever it is that people say on Facebook often gets buried with the statuses that generate the discussion - you may catch a glimpse of it on your main page when it's fresh, but chances are you won't follow it for long unless you've replied to that status too. A forum is quicker to follow. And right now there's no better place than this forum, so yeah, please don't shut it down and leave it to Facebook to make up for its absence.

[schiksalgemeinschaft]

Adding to what's already been said:

There's a very high threshold that scares off new posters. Look at the film thread: nobody talks about the new James Bond there. It sometimes feels like you need a PhD in some cultural science to have a valid opinion.

You could say: there's no loss there, popular culture sucks, but I think that's not true, cause you also need stuff like that for the newbies in taomud. I really do think a bit more discussion of popular music would help - and I don't mean Skrew-tapes, Fella Kuti nor the latest Feldman-recording.

[jon abbey]

And right now there's no better place than this forum, so yeah, please don't shut it down and leave it to Facebook to make up for its absence.

again, this is not happening unless Mark knows something he's not telling me, so don't worry.