I Hate CD prices

[Hal McGee]

Are prices of experimental music and improv CDs too high? I am asking this question with no particular agenda in mind. I just want to educate myself, understand, and learn stuff. I would like to read viewpoints by people who operate labels about what kinds of factors determine the prices that they charge for their CD releases. I will say that as a music consumer I am very cautious about buying a CD if it costs $15. My CD-buying income is limited by numerous factors, and (un)fortunately I have to be very picky about what I buy. I read numerous reviews before purchasing and mull and consider. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but I'm wondering if the (to me) relatively high prices of improv CDs turns people off and drives them to illegal downloads and eBay. I apologize if this topic has been discussed ad nauseam here and elsewhere.

I remember that day in 1979 when I was working at Peaches Record Store in Broad Ripple in Indianapolis when the first batch of compact discs arrived. The prices were outrageous - something like $25 a piece. We have been assured all along by the major record companies ever since then that the prices of CDs would fall to a "reasonable" level. I know that this is a slightly different topic - I just thought I would share this experience.

[martin]

How happy I would be if average CD prices in Germany were $15, but they ain't. And $25 is a bit above average (here!), but in no way outrageous. Crazy to re-import European releases from US distributors, but often it's cheaper that way, even with p&p added.

And no, no illegal downloading - for the artists' sake.

[orangettecoleman]

I'm totally comfortable paying around 12-13 dollars for a CD, I will impulse buy something that costs less than that, and if it is more than 15.99 I do a lot of considering before buying it, it has to be something I really want and know I will like. I work in a record store, and I will say that all of Amazon and Apple's advertising has devalued the CD dramatically in the minds of most people - because everywhere you look you see (non-physical download only) albums advertised for 9.99 or less, the perception is now that 9.99 is the upper limit of what is considered a reasonable price for a physical CD. The loss-leading of big box retailers has messed up price perception for a long time as well - Target advertises Lady Gaga CD's for 8.99 and makes all their profit on toasters and toilet paper that people buy when they come in for the CD. We don't bother bringing in anything that we have to price over 13.99 now because it just flat out will not sell, but the same thing at 10.99 or 9.99 will sell twice a month.

[joeperucki]

I'm thinking they (CD prices for the music we like) are low. Demand is incredibly low. I don't see how we can compare the prices of experimental music with pop music.

edit: there are only 100 customers

[c_sns]

I'm thinking they (CD prices for the music we like) are low. Demand is incredibly low. I don't see how we can compare the prices of experimental music with pop music.

I'm with Joe on this. On top of demand you have to keep in mind that the cost of production is not cheap, even with CD-R releases. Labels and musicians need to ensure that they at least make their money back and hopefully make a little extra to ensure repressing and future releases.

[bedouin]

Except in rare occasions, it's been a long time since I bought a CD that I haven't listened to first as an mp3. As such if I like something I buy it (almost regardless of the price).

To keep people off file sharing (make it easier, and make some money), labels should allow downloading a complete album at low bit rate (say 128 bps) for a low, refundable amount (say 2.99). Refunded when people want to buy the CD or lossless download at whatever price the label can justify the effort producing the disc.

[c_sns]

I'm wondering if the (to me) relatively high prices of improv CDs turns people off and drives them to illegal downloads and eBay.

High prices might be a factor with this but I think people tend to go for illegal downloads because they can. It's to easy to just click and listen and with almost no legal repercussions to make them think twice. As far as ebay is concerned, unless they're used CD's, I've been finding that it's harder to find deals there. Now that sellers can add a fixed price with Buy It Now they're selling CD's for the going retail value (give or take).

[Dan G]

being in Canada, I usually pay between $15 and $25 for a cd. I listen to it 1-200 times probably. I pay between $15 and $50 for a bottle of wine that lasts me 2 hours. A bottle of good scotch, at $100+, might get me 2 or 3 evening's entertainment.

CDs are a bargain.

[faster]

A data point:

A run of 500 copies of Acts Have Consequences ended up costing me around $1900 (high production and some sadly measly $ to Dave Quam and Ryu Hankil for design/art). I can sell them wholesale at $15-17 (it's a long double CD), so retail will end up $20-25 I guess. My production costs were very low--CD duplication & printing is cheaper in Korea than anywhere else right now, afaik. I did this on my own, no label involvement, strictly DIY & independent.

I need to sell about 120 to break even.

That's not a foregone conclusion, but it's also definitely possible. I think I made a couple bucks on ipsi sibi (not counting labor/time, etc., of course. That guarantees any release is a loss, which has always been my expectation), but that was cheaper to make (single CD, discs and packaging done separately and put together by me, no shrinkwrap). If I sell 50, I'll be bummed--I will have lost about $1000. If I sell 150, I'll be overjoyed. I'll give a lot away to other musicians, critics, etc., and no matter what I'll end up with a couple big boxes of these discs sitting around my house, probably forever or until Kevin gets indicted for performance enhancing drugs (PEDs) and I can capitalize on his notoriety by selling them on ebay with fake "Kevin Parks" autographs.

[Hal McGee]

Thanks, Joe. Those numbers are very helpful. Let me see if I understand correctly. Your cost per copy of Acts Have Consequences is roughly $4 and you need to sell at least 120 copies at your wholesale rate of roughly $15 to be able to break even, not counting promos and trades. The 120 people who do buy Acts Have Consequences (which looks very handsome by the way!) are more or less paying about $11 per set just for the music itself, aside from the packaging and materials.

I remember that when I visited Al Margolis of the POGUS label several years ago he had several stacks boxes of unsold CDs in his apartment, and yet he told me that he was selling enough so that each release more or less paid for the next.

Looking at it this way I can see clearly what some of the people above were suggesting - that the fans and the listeners are in a big sense investing in the scene, helping to support the labels, when they buy a CD.

I have put out only three actual pressed CDs - this was back in the 90s. Other than those the way I've always done it is to do home-produced CDRs and cassettes - dubbed and printed one at a time in my home by me. My cost per CDR ends up being roughly $3 to $4 and I usually charge my customers about $7 or $8 postage paid.

This is all very interesting. Thanks for the replies, everybody.

[Coinage]

I think around $15 is generally an OK price for CDs, but I do have to confess I get annoyed when, for example, Evan Parker or Peter Brotzmann release five improv albums in a year. I mean, I concede that the packaging costs are the same, but still, I feel like I should get some sort of volume discount, especially since it's not like they spent a year writing this stuff. I also struggle with this feeling with John Zorn releases, but he generally composes his albums these days so it's not quite the same.

[maRi]

To keep people off file sharing (make it easier, and make some money), labels should allow downloading a complete album at low bit rate (say 128 bps) for a low, refundable amount (say 2.99). Refunded when people want to buy the CD or lossless download at whatever price the label can justify the effort producing the disc.

This is a great example of a similar but more elegant idea: http://wharffell.bandcamp.com/album/frankenstein

"The downloads are paid-for, although you can preview the entire album for free. But if you decide you'd like to have a copy of any of the recordings, it would be really helpful if you could go the legal route and pay for it..."

The rest of the catalogue is here: http://brucesfingers.bandcamp.com/

[jkudler]

I need to sell about 120 to break even.

wholesale. but you'll make it back faster if you sell them retail at shows, right? also, let's point out that the margins for joe are a bit different than the average label, in that the artist and label are the same.

another issue in this are of music is how globally far-flung labels are. it's not like record is getting issued in every country, so in the past month, i probably bought things priced in dollars, euros, and pounds (plus cd's direct from toshi nakamura that probably had some yen go into them too). eg a cathnor cd is probably cheaper for me now than a few months ago, even if richard's prices are the same.

that said, i think $15 for a domestic US cd is a bit high if the packaging is standard jewel case or something else cheap/boring. $12-13 seems to be to be the right DIY/punk/scene-friendly price, and $10 is pretty nice.

-jesse

[some guy]

Dan is right. A $15 bottle of wine is gone in minutes. A $15 dollar CD is forever.*

And what about concerts? You pay much more for a concert that lasts a couple of hours than you do for a CD that et cetera, don't you?

I'm just surprised that people here are reporting as being so cautious about buying CDs. Where's the sense of adventure? (And I'm not just saying that because I'm old and rich. I bought CDs (and LPs) when I was young and poor, too.** Wine? Not so much!)

Anyway, shouldn't this thread be titled "I love CD prices"? You know, to go along with the board name, ihatemusic, which is the only board I've found where everyone truly loves music. Just sayin'.

*Forever enough.

**My economic theory. First listen to a CD is $15.99. Second listen is $8. Third is $5.33. By the time you've listened a few more times, it's dropped to practically nothing per listen. Free. Now that really IS a bargain!

[simon reynell]

Though the costings are slightly different in the uk, my figures would be similar to Joe's in that to cover the costs of manufacturing 500 cd's and paper parts for the cover, I need to sell around 125 discs. About half the discs I release on Another Timbre are things that people have sent to me complete, so have no extra costs. But the number of sales needed to break even obviously rises if there are other production costs (such as musicians' travel & other expenses, hire of a decent recording space etc, let alone if I had to bring in someone else to record or master - which luckily I don't).

So some discs break even while others need to be subsidised. I was clear when I started that I wasn't going to take any money out of the label but would subsidise it where necessary through my work income. Only one AT disc has so far made a significant surplus (Lost Daylight), so I distributed the surplus to the musicians.
(For each release each musician gets around 40 discs free, and if they want more than that they can buy them from the label at just over cost price)

[sound323]

for example, Evan Parker or Peter Brotzmann release five improv albums in a year. I mean, I concede that the packaging costs are the same, but still, I feel like I should get some sort of volume discount, especially since it's not like they spent a year writing this stuff.

40++ years mastering their art, they don't have to sit down for twelve months with pen in hand. $15 dividend by 40 years ... not bad value for money ?!?!

[MRS]

Where's the sense of adventure?

Agreed. Throwing darts at recordings is part of the utility, most of the time you'd hope.

[faster]

Though the costings are slightly different in the uk, my figures would be similar to Joe's in that to cover the costs of manufacturing 500 cd's and paper parts for the cover, I need to sell around 125 discs.

For those of you who don't know, 500 is the de facto minimum for redbook CD pressings. There's no real savings beneath 500, because so much of the cost goes toward creation of the glass master. The media is pennies. In fact 1000 barely costs more than 500.

[faster]

Your cost per copy of Acts Have Consequences is roughly $4 and you need to sell at least 120 copies at your wholesale rate of roughly $15 to be able to break even, not counting promos and trades. The 120 people who do buy Acts Have Consequences (which looks very handsome by the way!) are more or less paying about $11 per set just for the music itself, aside from the packaging and materials.

Well, not really. Because there's no price break to do fewer than 500 Redbook CDs, I think it makes more sense to consider the whole run to be about 150. So my per-unit cost is more than $10. Let's be honest, after all: at least 300 of these will remain unsold in perpetuity.

The alternative, of course, is to do CDRs, which I've done before and may do again, but I've had shitty luck with them wearing out or failing (yeah, even nice Taiyo Yudens), and fuck that. A lot of the cost also went into the packaging, which I really didn't cut any corners on, obviously. In fact, Dave Quam & Hankil got paid very little for their very helpful contributions. I mean, I've promised them virgins in heaven & all that, but I'm not sure they're buying it.

With CDRs, I've done my own packaging, but it's a pain in the ass, one that tends to keep me from making more or at least doing so in a timely manner (Ethics, anyone?).

but you'll make it back faster if you sell them retail at shows, right?

This almost never happens. My schedule has prevented me from touring the last three years, and merch tables in Korea and Japan are so crowded I can realistically sell maybe 3-5 discs a year at shows, probably one or two of which will be Acts Have Consequences. Not even enough to pay for dinner after the gig, and forget about transportation...so no, I don't factor that in.

[Hal McGee]

Your cost per copy of Acts Have Consequences is roughly $4 and you need to sell at least 120 copies at your wholesale rate of roughly $15 to be able to break even, not counting promos and trades. The 120 people who do buy Acts Have Consequences (which looks very handsome by the way!) are more or less paying about $11 per set just for the music itself, aside from the packaging and materials.

Well, not really. Because there's no price break to do fewer than 500 Redbook CDs, I think it makes more sense to consider the whole run to be about 150. So my per-unit cost is more than $10. Let's be honest, after all: at least 300 of these will remain unsold in perpetuity.

The alternative, of course, is to do CDRs, which I've done before and may do again, but I've had shitty luck with them wearing out or failing (yeah, even nice Taiyo Yudens), and fuck that. A lot of the cost also went into the packaging, which I really didn't cut any corners on, obviously. In fact, Dave Quam & Hankil got paid very little for their very helpful contributions. I mean, I've promised them virgins in heaven & all that, but I'm not sure they're buying it.

With CDRs, I've done my own packaging, but it's a pain in the ass, one that tends to keep me from making more or at least doing so in a timely manner (Ethics, anyone?).

Thanks, Joe, that's a very helpful perspective to look at it as essentially a run of 150 at a per unit cost of $10. I get the picture now.

I am currently using Taiyo Yuden CDRs and have experienced no problems with them, and I hope that good fortune continues. Doing my own homemade CDR releases makes sense to me personally because I can make as a many or as few as I need to. While dubbing the CDRs one at a time and printing the covers at home (usually with modest but good results) and doing all the cutting and folding and assembling can be a pain in the ass, it's also the way I have always done things - since the days of the Cassette Era in the 1980s and 1990s. For me it's very much a part of the homemade audio art/noise aspect of it. This is very important to me personally because my homemade experimental music releases are very personal statements of a sort. After wandering in the wasteland of Internet Music for a couple of years I will soon resume CDR production and will issue new works and will reissue my back catalog of 150 albums.

I can however see the advantages of doing pressed/manufactured CD releases such as Acts Have Consequences (which I hope to be able to purchase). I cannot however see myself being able or willing to fork over $1000-$1900 for a CD release any time soon. I say willing because the shorter run CDRs make sense to me because I have so many different audio projects that I am interested in getting out there for people to hear, not to mention the financial impossibility of reissuing my back catalog on CD.