Empreintes DIGITALes & modern electroacoustics

[cdeupree]

I'm not sure the Francisco Lopez disc mentioned in an earlier post can really be termed musique concrete either - unless one assumes that anything that stitches recordings together in that way is MC.

Lopez explicitly connects his environmental works such as Wind [Patagonia] and La Selva with Schaeffer's concepts of sound object and reduced listening that are at the heart of MC, which he reinforces with his practice of blindfolding audiences during his concerts. I Included Wind [Patagonia] on my list of contemporary concrete works partly to acknowledge the connection.

I'll second Jon's recommendation of Wabi Sabi. I'd forgotten about that one and look forward to hearing it again real soon now.

[Adam Asnan]

throwing my hat in the ring as someone who uses composition, improvisation & creates a lot of that with 'field recordings' I can say that there are fewer & fewer folks at the more creative end of FR that find terms such as acoustmatic or soundscape appropriate or comfortable. They serve a purpose at times, mostly in terms of paperwork & in an acedemic setting, but they are increasingly restrictive and somewhat imposed rather than applied by those involved.

I'm not sure the Francisco Lopez disc mentioned in an earlier post can really be termed musique concrete either - unless one assumes that anything that stitches recordings together in thatw ay is MC. still....

Hmm.. the terms have undergone some stylistic associations, but have never been explicitly exclusive, they are infact rather simple.

Acousmatic is actually more definitive of a listening approach, (to reiterate the same old story) It is a term used to describe the phenomenon of listening to a sound that has been displaced from it's cause or incident. and Further more is used to describe any sort of music that utilises the sounds of its sources without sounding objects or sources themselves. It is actually very appropriate to refer to field recordings as acousmatic.

Musique Concrete is also very straight forward, and again has many complexities in reception. It is a term used to define the composition of music, by literally arranging the sounds contained upon a fixed or 'concrete' format as opposed to 'Musique abstract'.. the composition of music via scoring to be realized later.

Obviously they both have an extensive cloud of theory around them, but I dont think Bayle or Chion would disregard other 'styles' of music as not Acous/MusCon if they fit within the technical criteria.

[Adam Asnan]

Adam Asnan wrote:
Also, let us not forget that Dufour's label MOTUS is also a leading publisher of new acousmatic work

Never heard of it, any recommendations?

In all honesty, they're not that easy to track down, theres lots of contemporary composers published through it, but unfortunately havent had the pleasure to really explore them.

any Metamkine recommendations that would fit this topic?

Perhaps not everyone's cup, but Michel Chion's Dix-sept minutes is an outstanding piece, as well as Gloria and Credo Mambo. Lionel Marchetti's Train de nuit for a single loudspeaker is another really fascinating piece. Bertrand Dubedout's Aux Lampions is a lovely piece too.

These are all Collection Cinéma pour l’oreille

[JrF]

Lopez explicitly connects his environmental works such as Wind [Patagonia] and La Selva with Schaeffer's concepts of sound object and reduced listening that are at the heart of MC, which he reinforces with his practice of blindfolding audiences during his concerts. I Included Wind [Patagonia] on my list of contemporary concrete works partly to acknowledge the connection.

indeed - but he doesn't call it MC itself & he also does not fully imply that the concepts of sound object & reduced listening are only connected to MC.

Hmm.. the terms have undergone some stylistic associations, but have never been explicitly exclusive, they are infact rather simple.

Acousmatic is actually more definitive of a listening approach, (to reiterate the same old story) It is a term used to describe the phenomenon of listening to a sound that has been displaced from it's cause or incident. and Further more is used to describe any sort of music that utilises the sounds of its sources without sounding objects or sources themselves. It is actually very appropriate to refer to field recordings as acousmatic.

Musique Concrete is also very straight forward, and again has many complexities in reception. It is a term used to define the composition of music, by literally arranging the sounds contained upon a fixed or 'concrete' format as opposed to 'Musique abstract'.. the composition of music via scoring to be realized later.

Obviously they both have an extensive cloud of theory around them, but I dont think Bayle or Chion would disregard other 'styles' of music as not Acous/MusCon if they fit within the technical criteria.

the problem comes when definitions are applied by others & not by the artists. I would argue that Acousmatic is no longer percieved by many in the terms you state specifically because of the way it has been apllied to work & not to listening. Same goes for MC. The 'form' was 'invented' long before the folks associated with that name re-invented it & I guess my issue is that much of the earlier work has been forgotten or ignored not because of it's quality but rather that the focus has been on the work related to the term MC.

so there ! it's all a barrel of laughs anyhow....

for me, the terms are the slamming of doors !

for the most part I find most people who talk about concepts related to 'acousmatic' have little or no experience of self discovery of expanded or reduced listening, instead arriving at these practices via the ideas of others. As for MC what you find if you talk to the creators themselves is that they too felt the immediate restrictions of the term and persist in it despite those issues and not by accepting them. It's a question of natural, empathetic understanding rather than knowledge & those two are tricky to seperate at times.

[skrobek]

see Michel's Chion's interview by Dan Warburton on PT for a discussion of those terms...

Musique Concrète: composing with fixed sounds

Acousmatique: term coined to make the difference between music made through the maipulation of real-life sound on tapes and a musique concrète that was gradually using electronic-generated sounds...

or maybe not ???

[JrF]

we are perhaps drifting slightly off topic but....

Musique Concrète: composing with fixed sounds

for me the problem is that Musique concrete was actually a term invented by a few people & referring to thier work & I fundamentally disagree that this term (or any perhaps) therefore defines all work that is 'composed with fixed sounds'.

acousmatic - literally has no meaning whatsoever to many of the people who create music or sound that is talked about in those terms. Acousmatic works are only those works called that by the people making it - same goes for any term if you ask me. But that is a whole other argument....

[mudd]

more than a little off topic, please desist immediately.

m

[maRi]

Kristoff K. Roll's work in improv contexts is interesting, in particular on La Pièce with Xavier Charles. Their contribution to the last four minutes of "Le Petit Salon Moutarde" is very funny, and I also like the second half of "Grange Nocturne". What appeals to me is the swaying, "children at play" character of the music and how repetition is used to create it. The tumultuous "Lavomatic" is a bit oversaturated maybe, but still nice.

[Zeno Marx]

Can anyone talk about these new releases:
Jean-Luc Guionnet - Non-Organic Bias 2CD
Eric La Casa/Cedreic Peyronnet - La Creuse CD

[Stephen]

Eric La Casa/Cedreic Peyronnet - La Creuse CD

I've got that one and really liked it, mostly familiar territory in the vein of Nehil, Grzinich, Northam etc. I'd call it field recording composition rather than EA as such, most of the sounds seem untreated, and they are aiming and succeeding to create an aural picture of a specific area.

[(<oo>)]

two more personal favourites:
esther venrooy - "to shape volumes, repeat"
&
bruno moreigne - "bruits, sons, paroles et silences de la forêt"

[JrF]

Esther seconded....even if she doesn't perhaps subscribe to the terms under discussion

[cdeupree]

Also, let us not forget that Dufour's label MOTUS is also a leading publisher of new acousmatic work

Never heard of it, any recommendations?


In all honesty, they're not that easy to track down, theres lots of contemporary composers published through it, but unfortunately havent had the pleasure to really explore them.

They are available in North America through ElectroCD (the empreintes digitales site). I've picked up the Ferreyra release, but can't say much about it at this point.

[Adam Asnan]

Also, let us not forget that Dufour's label MOTUS is also a leading publisher of new acousmatic work

Never heard of it, any recommendations?


In all honesty, they're not that easy to track down, theres lots of contemporary composers published through it, but unfortunately havent had the pleasure to really explore them.


They are available in North America through ElectroCD (the empreintes digitales site). I've picked up the Ferreyra release, but can't say much about it at this point.

ah yes, so there is.. well spotted

http://www.electrocd.com/en/boutique/motus/

[fearandpanic]

Paul Dolden, who was only briefly mentioned, tends to pile up hundreds of tracks of instrumental and vocal recordings in a maximalist mush. Pieces that are about fifteen minutes long are often derived from about a hundred hours of recorded material. Some of the pieces on the L'Ivresse de la Vitesse CDs on ED from the early 90s also feature soloists: Peggy Lee on cello and François Houle on soprano sax, among others. What sets him apart from his colleagues most is probably his use of untransformed instrumental and choral composition and solo parts for improvising musicians. Drum kits and guitars give it that "classical goes rock" sounds that Louis Andriessen and other fairly dull composers mistake for excitement, and in places he does have that rockish minimalism thing going on.

Dolden says that "The intoxicating aspect of speed is evoked by using primarily fast tempo markings and rapid changes in orchestration, density and dynamics. These elements can be particularly sped up to the point of exhaustion and intoxication in the digital audio studio which is limitless or virtual in its color and density possibilities." Which all sounds very well, but I was surprised by how slow moving it actually is. It's more like a giant chaotic blob that can make a quarter of an hour seem like a very long time. I really played this one out of curiosity, and maybe I've started in the wrong place. He was praised earlier in the thread, so maybe that person (or anyone else) would like to set me straight or suggest something else.

[(<oo>)]

These elements can be particularly sped up to the point of exhaustion and intoxication in the digital audio studio which is limitless or virtual in its color and density possibilities."

I was very impressed by Dolden when I first heard him some fifteen years ago, but upon relistening to him recently I found his choice from the limitless pool of colors rather unappealing and unimaginative. Sounding spectacular seems the chief aim of his music.

[visa tapani]

I feel similarly about Paul Dolden. With hundreds of tracks piled on top of each other you're bound to get some interesting walls of sound, but I think even better results could be achieved with more care. I find it ok, but not much more than that. I've only heard L'Ivresse De La Vitesse though, and haven't given it so much time. Maybe I should give it another chance...

Also, I don't think that digital summation of hundreds of tracks works that well. Lot of the masses sound like a far fewer number of tracks ran through some multi-band pitch shifters/delays/complex chorusing effects. Oh well, maybe it was more impressive 15 years ago. I guess his merit is that at least he has his own thing, which is quite different from most of the electroacoustic music made today. Anyway, I would also be interested in hearing comments from someone who holds him in higher regard.

Though I have to say, I do like the idea of "excess". In some music (say, some of Bach's fugues or Tallis' Spem in Alium) I get the impression that there's just too much for me to follow or register and this can be quite awe-inspiring. Though I think others do it better than Dolden...

Oh yeah, on a different note, people might be interested in knowing that liner notes from all empreintes DIGITALes releases are available at electrocd.com. For example, here are the notes for Dolden's L’ivresse de la vitesse 1 (there's more in the 'track detail' column).

[maRi]

Micheline Coulombe Saint-Marcoux seems fairly obscure, but she is one of the Canadian electroacoustic pioneers and is excellent.
Impulsion is a superb collection of her works for tape. The music is characterised by sudden movement and detalied collaging of minute events.

Her explorations of the voice as an instrument are represented here by the opener, "Arksalalartôq", a marvellous piece for voice, instrumentalist and tape.

According to Andra McCartney, Saint-Marcoux "considered the voice as a fragile and important instrument. During her childhood in the Lac Saint-Jean region, she constantly listened to her family singing. She was aware of the incredible possibilities of the voice, but considered it fragile because of its connection with each person. When she was studying with Claude Champagne, he insisted that students create works for voice, and initially she wrote settings for poems by Verlaine. However, she was dissatisfied with the gap between singer and accompaniment, and wanted to integrate voice with instruments, to find points of fusion, change and rapid juxtaposition, as in 'Arksalalartôq'. She believed in the abilities of contemporary vocalists to improvise, to re-discover the vocal freedom of children."

[fearandpanic]

Micheline Coulombe Saint-Marcoux seems fairly obscure, but she is one of the Canadian electroacoustic pioneers and is excellent. Impulsion is a superb collection of her works for tape.

Yeah, these are really great. She seems to have been unjustly neglected during her life, and ED have done an important archival job in gathering most of her pieces together. She worked briefly at the INA-GRM, and some of the pieces on this one (I especially liked "Moustières" from 1971) sound better to me than her colleagues' work. Lots of rapid-fire detail and a great tactile feeling.

[joe grimm]

When Pierre Schaefer introduced the term "acousmatic" he did so in reference to an ancient Pythagorean sect, the acousmatic cult. Their spiritual practice involved listening to their teacher lecturing behind a sheet of cloth, so that ostensibly the words could be heard without reference to the persona of the teacher.

So "acousmatic" properly describes a mode of listening; listening in such a way that the sounds are heard in themselves as independent entities, without referring to their own sources.