Why aren't there more women involved in this music ?

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bonniejones
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Re: Why aren't there more women involved in this music ?

Post by bonniejones »

OK, so this is probably the last post anyone wants to resurrect - but I never did get back to you all with my comments, and I just now finally got a chance to read all the way through this thread, which I really enjoyed. It's a good sign to me that we spent 11 pages on this topic. It proves there some awareness about gender disparity in experimental music.

And since as Joe mentioned, I'm heavily involved with curating/organizing art events for marginalized groups http://www.transmodernfestival.org, http://www.baltimoreperformance.com/lossolos I thought I'd add my final two cents for what it's worth -

Jesse asked this question
what i think would be useful or helpful here would be if any actual women involved in this scene would chime in and tell us if they personally feel any sense of it being a boy's club or exclusive/exclusionary, or just if there is any ill ease at the dominant demographic and vibe.
So to answer your question. Yes I feel like I'm surrounded by men a majority of the time at shows on and off the stage. And yes, as some of you festival organizers already know, when in that situation I tend to drink too many gin and tonics and harass organizers for not having enough women in the line up. For those times already passed I am truly embarrassed and promise these days to be more professional and get less drunk.

Is there sexism in experimental music? I don't think in the traditional sense of a bunch of men sitting around calling me "sweetheart" and asking me to fetch a coffee. Most of the guys I interact with in the scene are damn enlightened on gender/race/class issues. In some cases more than me.

I do think that what I'm seeing in experimental music (and exp. culture/art) is the old adage "you curate what you know and who you are" coming true. So when a medium such as EAI starts as a predominantly male artform, those are the folks that are booking the venues, organizing the fests, teaching the classes etc.

As the gender divide closes and more women become involved in the artform, then these women also become organizers/curators (myself, Clare Cooper, Andrea Neumann all good examples) and in turn we curate what we know and who we are (in my case, women, minorities, experimental artists).

So why aren't there more women in this music? Because there aren't enough women curating and organizing this music yet. and / or because the male organizers aren't booking enough of these women yet.

What is clear to me after a decade of organizing is that what you give is what you get. The people in your event will be of interest to similar people. Without fail, every time I book someone with a Japanese name, at least 2-4 Japanese folks that I have never seen at any music event will show up.

To be honest, I don't necessarily mind if people curate what you know and just stock their fests full of white guys and me if that's what's on their radar. I appreciate the inclusion in most cases. Also, there are a lot more (though not a ton) opportunities these days for women/minorities to show their work and the grants tend to favor us so at least we're getting the dough.

But I think that most of the enlightened men I know want to accurately represent what's happening in experimental art - and so therefore that brings me back to the question of whether lists are good or bad. Also whether it's good or bad to have the "all girls" series (of course I think it's good cause I have one - though I have been offended before by male organizers putting me in all girl improv sets - perhaps that's because there's such a small number of us to begin with)

Here's my rationale for both of those things. While I can see the "ghetto" point and agree that the separate but equal approach doesn't create real equality... here's what I see as the reality and the role of these types of exercises (both the listing and all female series/fest etc)

They remind people of the gender disparity and the fact that yes, it STILL exists and that the default (in culture/politics/etc) is not diversity but usually homogeneity.

When people look at the roster for my Los Solos series, after a few seconds they often say - oh - they're all women. To which I respond - yes.. you don't see that very often huh?

Women musicians in EAI, noise, jazz, etc exist and in large enough quantities to satisy any equal opportunist. The organizers and curators and label owners have the responsibility if they want to take it to create events / cds that reflect what's happening in their scene. The artist be she female or ethnic has the responsibility to push out into their scene and rather than complain about the lack actively add to the more - and maybe have a few gin and tonics and point out the lack too.

Women in experimental art are often not nearly as visible as their male counterparts - again due to who is doing the curating - but they are there and plenty of female organizers actively seek these artists out. So in the worse case scenario for male organizers - just ask a female organizer for recommendations or spend some time on Google. Or go to the website of one of the female musicians that you do know about and see who she's working with. It's actually quite simple to do and it's how I find out about a lot of the artists I book.

Artists who get gigs get visibility which begets popularity which begets being canonized. (of course talent plays a role here.. sometimes) So in the case of EAI starting as a male dominated artform that explains what has ended up in the canon, but is changing. Of course. Just look at the sea change in canonized experimental poets.

So thanks for entertaining this last little note, I'm not sure anyone will read this as the thread got a little toxic - but I'm glad that folks bring stuff like this up on occasion. My cockles are sufficiently warmed.

mudd
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Re: Why aren't there more women involved in this music ?

Post by mudd »

thanks for the post, bonnie. i don't ever mind old threads bumping up if it's for thoughtful additions.

to follow, i hope or maybe expect that women or minorities organizing and curating shows and festivals will lead to more women or minorities in the audience. because i don't really believe any of the arguments that women or men or any given color are more likely to like improvisation.

also, i see you're on the schedule for the no idea festival again this year. really looking forward to that. annette krebs back in texas, too!

m

skrobek

Re: Why aren't there more women involved in this music ?

Post by skrobek »

Very interesting post, thanks !
this is probably the last thread anyone wants to resurrect
Indeed, after the things that were said. I'm glad you came back to it with an informed and very interesting point of view.

Yes there is a disparity, and yes it is (usually...) not a 'traditional' machismo thing.

I had not thought about it from that angle, that it's not so much a matter of women artists but of women curators and organizers. This really sheds a light on the whole question. For the audience that's the 'invisible' part of the situation we have verified that it's a man's man's man's world.

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J.F.
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Re: Why aren't there more women involved in this music ?

Post by J.F. »

I read that post with interest as well, but don't think it really answered much, but basically shifted the whole matter a little bit.

I mean... why aren't there more women involved in this music, as passionate curators and organisers?
. . . .

mudd
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Re: Why aren't there more women involved in this music ?

Post by mudd »

what, you expected a simple answer?

why aren't there more people in this music, as passionate curators and organizers?

m

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J.F.
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Re: Why aren't there more women involved in this music ?

Post by J.F. »

I wasn't looking for/expecting a simple answer, but meant to comment, after having read this:
skrobek wrote:This really sheds a light on the whole question.
- I just don't see how it does, but whatever...
. . . .

skrobek

Re: Why aren't there more women involved in this music ?

Post by skrobek »

Well,we startedby wondering about female artists,

the people started making long lists and it appeared that there were quite a few women involved in free jazz, noise etc..

so why aren't they more visible ?

Perhaps because the organizers are mostly men,and people tend to invite who they know, and they tend to know people like themselves, same social class, origins, sex.

Why aren't theremore women curating artistic events such as these ?

Good question, which shifts the focus from 'are women interested in this art form why or why not ?' to 'do women have the time - money - opportunity to organize such events?'

It is an altogether different question which laves no place to inborn concepts of taste or artistic sensibility.

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howsthatsound
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Re: Why aren't there more women involved in this music ?

Post by howsthatsound »

it may have been said before, but i think part of the reason there are fewer female curators, is that there have been fewer historically and therefore their are fewer role models to help inspire (empower?) females to curate. this will certainly reach more of a balance over time.

i also think there are a number of very subtle ideological/cultural factors that discourage such things. sort of an ambient sense of discouragement that is too tenuous to be traced to it's source.

personally though, i don't think forcing "change" will really help matters. better for everyone to be patient, open-minded, and generous, imo.
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AlbionMoonlight
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Re: Why aren't there more women involved in this music ?

Post by AlbionMoonlight »

The curatorial issue in the music world is an interesting one given that in the art (visual that is) world, there is a large number of female curators, gallery owners, etc. In fact, I'd venture a guess that it is as close to a 50/50 split as any major cultural structure can be. It's reached a point where no one really thinks twice about it--However, visual art and its supporting institutions were the medium and subject for very strong institutional critique in the 70's and 80s (Guerrilla Girls, et al.)--Music and concert curating was relatively unaffected unfortunately.

skrobek

Re: Why aren't there more women involved in this music ?

Post by skrobek »

The curatorial issue in the music world is an interesting one given that in the art (visual that is) world, there is a large number of female curators, gallery owners, etc. In fact, I'd venture a guess that it is as close to a 50/50 split as any major cultural structure can be. It's reached a point where no one really thinks twice about it--However, visual art and its supporting institutions were the medium and subject for very strong institutional critique in the 70's and 80s (Guerrilla Girls, et al.)--Music and concert curating was relatively unaffected unfortunately.
Yes, I tend to agree with this. I don't really get the"role model" argument Ethan, I mean it has to start somewhere doesn't it ? It's like the old joke of the people who get refused at the door of a nightclub because they are not 'regular customers'...?

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howsthatsound
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Re: Why aren't there more women involved in this music ?

Post by howsthatsound »

perhaps you misunderstand my meaning...

of course it has to start somewhere, but it is more difficult to find inspiration/courage sans role models. seeing the success of people you identify with can be a big source of courage to do the same/something similar. women just have fewer in this area historically.

they are appearing now of course, and momentum is building. it's just a matter of time.

an example from my personal experience:
i was making music similar to what is called EAI 7 or 8 years ago, but without any knowledge that anyone else was. my friends and family thought i was a pretentious nerd for doing such things, and i got no support from anyone, just weird looks/eyerolls. (one friend actually asked me "why would you make something like this?") sometimes i thought, why the fuck AM i doing this, what is it all for? obviously it got a lot easier (in some ways) as i discovered this area of music.
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skrobek

Re: Why aren't there more women involved in this music ?

Post by skrobek »

howsthatsound wrote:one friend actually asked me "why would you make something like this ?
Ah yes, the exact same thing happened to me ! I'm sure we could have a thread with all the reactions we got from friends, relatives etc.

But you are talking from the artistic point of view again, the would-be curators obviously knows the scene well, has been to many shows, met artists, etc... so it's notreally the same is it ?

On a more down-to-earth note I would say that maybe women in general have less money than men they can invest in this kind of activity ?

P.S : PM on its way

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bonniejones
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Re: Why aren't there more women involved in this music ?

Post by bonniejones »

You are absolutely right J.F. - I really don't have a simple answer to just about anything related to race/gender/ethnicity/class/sexual preference etc.... and by this point, anyone reading this 12-pager knows that one doesn't exist for this particular question.

So perhaps I should have made that clear from the outset - I'm opposed to answers but like proposing solutions and actions and different ways of thinking. Kind of like improv.

The point of my post was to provide a very reasonable and fairly easy action that would actually change the current situation if one desired to do so - much as it has in poetry, visual art, film/video, etc.

I also think that like Skrobek, I feel much more productive talking about why and what to do about the lack of female organizers/curators or how to get more women on bills than generalizing about male/female biology, or trying to come up with some general list of what women need to get out of their creative pursuits (not that you were doing this - just that it's another fools errand in my opinion)

I think the sexism/class stuff we were discussing here comes more into play when considering why there are more/less women booking venues (this is sociology more than biology I think) but to be honest it's probably moot and not much to discuss considering there's very few venues overall that book EAI whether from women or men.

To the comment on forcing change - I agree - no need to force anything - more women in experimental music and art will happen and is happening and in my experience it's fairly easy to do for a middle class, college educated, American like myself.

The force tends to show itself in the backlash not the outbound efforts towards equality/equal playing fields etc. Some of you have already seen a bit of that backlash (we can probably just call it ignorance) (talking about attractiveness of female musicians in every review, making the statement "there's just not that many good female musicians in this music" etc.)

As to the idea of a role model - to a certain extent I agree - not in the after school special way but in the sense that any person doing something a little against the status quo tends to thrive with some validation from somewhere else. Just like the EAI story.

Thanks for the convo guys!

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howsthatsound
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Re: Why aren't there more women involved in this music ?

Post by howsthatsound »

skrobek wrote:But you are talking from the artistic point of view again, the would-be curators obviously knows the scene well, has been to many shows, met artists, etc... so it's notreally the same is it ?
not a 1:1 relationship, but related.

to put it more simply... flowers grow best near other flowers. :)

at the beginning of any movement, the burden of sustaining life, and moreso, growing, weigh heavily on the few and the strong, but more will soon be along with able shoulders to lighten the load.
The truth doesn't matter.

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