Straw Art

[Damon_Smith]

Not bad, but I'd maybe say it's probably even more important that a person's tastes, interests, and areas of expertise and knowledge be unique and interesting, and genuine. The notion that any specific body of knowledge gives someone an "upper hand" is pretty repellent.

Yeah, but my original quote was about having an understanding of other art forms which is as broad as it can be. I think there were some obvious comparisons between Rowe and some abstract artists, though it could be argued that Twombly (who is still pushing and creating VERY contemporary work so the Ornette comparison doesn't really work) is not so abstract.
I do spend a lot of time with my peers in the visual art, and try to stay current in contemporary art, still this could be another thread as has been said a few times.

As far as the "Upper hand" quote, music is not a competition but it also is a competion for peoples a attention and personal value once somebody makes their work public. I certainly value certain music of others and just plain like certain musicians and artists more than others. Even though I spent most of my life in California I just never bought into the hippie notion that everything is equal. I am extremely glad the world is not an amourphous blob and that things are different than other things.

[faster]

Even though I spent most of my life in California I just never bought into the hippie notion that everything is equal. I am extremely glad the world is not an amourphous blob and that things are different than other things.

This is a straw man, and I am arguing no such thing. In fact, my "unique and interesting" and "genuine" clearly imply inequality.

But if you think art is more important than other stuff, good luck with that--I'm sure Mr. Saatchi & pals are pleased with you.

[Damon_Smith]

The notion that any specific body of knowledge gives someone an "upper hand" is pretty repellent.

This is also a 'Straw Man" (the name of a not-bad SF punk band in the early '90s) as well since nobody ever specified any particular body of Knowledge. Everyone drawing from the same sources would get lame pretty fast.

[faster]

Musicians with wider understanding of all the arts are just going to have the upper hand in dealing with abstract material.

[jkudler]

Chandan Narayan played in strawman!

[RFKorp]

nobody ever specified any particular body of Knowledge.

well, you seemed to imply that everyone should be pulling from different pools of art-knowledge. which is plenty specific.

when really, it's much more interesting to consider how someone's genuine fascination with the presidency of Millard Filmore or the mating habits of dung beetles influences their music-making.

[Damon_Smith]

nobody ever specified any particular body of Knowledge.

well, you seemed to imply that everyone should be pulling from different pools of art-knowledge. which is plenty specific.

when really, it's much more interesting to consider how someone's genuine fascination with the presidency of Millard Filmore or the mating habits of dung beetles influences their music-making.

I can only talk about what is interesting to me, yours and Bhob's alternatives (exept maybe the Souffle) are not very interesting to me, which is fine and makes things a lot richer and even gives context to the art and music practices I do find interesting.
You and faster find "all the arts" to be specific, I find it to be general. As I understand things all the art work ever made is pretty vast and obviously, not all visual or musical. We are not all on the same baseball team so we don't have to wear the uniform.

[faster]

I can only talk about what is interesting to me

As you've resorted to this a few times here at IHM, I hope it's not too forward for me to suggest that much of this could have been avoided if you'd simply said that in the first place: "I'm interested in art and it enriches my music practice."

[schiksalgemeinschaft]

That's what Rorty would say.

[Damon_Smith]

I can only talk about what is interesting to me

As you've resorted to this a few times here at IHM, I hope it's not too forward for me to suggest that much of this could have been avoided if you'd simply said that in the first place: "I'm interested in art and it enriches my music practice."

Or it can be understood that each post can only contain the opinion of the author of that post.

[faster]

I can only talk about what is interesting to me

As you've resorted to this a few times here at IHM, I hope it's not too forward for me to suggest that much of this could have been avoided if you'd simply said that in the first place: "I'm interested in art and it enriches my music practice."

Or it can be understood that each post can only contain the opinion of the author of that post.

Right, but "I like this" and "people who like this are better" are two different opinions. Are you seriously this dense?

[Damon_Smith]

Right, but "I like this" and "people who like this are better" are two different opinions. Are you seriously this dense?

But they are both the opinion of a specific person and not the word of god. I believe some things are better than other things, we have estabilished that already, so we don't need to pick away at minor details like how posts are worded. A lot of you would be better off in a linguistics forum.
You can just say (as a few people already have), "I don't think an understanding of other arts matters and I love the music of ______ and they don't deal with anything like that" and we can move on.

[mudd]

damon if you keep directing other posters to 'a linguistics forum' i'm going to have to start moving your posts. now we can all probably afford to leave off on this argument already.

m

[Damon_Smith]

damon if you keep directing other posters to 'a linguistics forum' i'm going to have to start moving your posts. now we can all probably afford to leave off on this argument already.

m

I understand your point, but you have to admit a lot of arguing over language happens here to the point of it not being productive. I have to stand behind it in the exchange with Faster above.

[RFKorp]

Damon, we're not arguing over language. We're arguing over meaning.

You have stated that in your opinion, a wide knowledge of art is of utmost importance for a musician in this area to acquire.

Others of us have proposed that perhaps a wide knowledge of art is NOT the best for everyone. But only for SOME people (yourself likely included). And that for OTHER people, other more personally valuable things might be more productive.

As Joe said. it is ok to say "this thing is better than that thing FOR ME" but you should expect people to debate you when you say "I think this thing is better than that thing FOR EVERYONE."

[Damon_Smith]

Damon, we're not arguing over language. We're arguing over meaning.

You have stated that in your opinion, a wide knowledge of art is of utmost importance for a musician in this area to acquire.

Others of us have proposed that perhaps a wide knowledge of art is NOT the best for everyone. But only for SOME people (yourself likely included). And that for OTHER people, other more personally valuable things might be more productive.

As Joe said. it is ok to say "this thing is better than that thing FOR ME" but you should expect people to debate you when you say "I think this thing is better than that thing FOR EVERYONE."

Ignorance is never a good plan. However, I said the arts so while I am most interested in visual arts, in my original post I meant all the other art forms like poetry, dance, film, literature, etc.
I don't think anyone has to love anything, but if a person was willfully unaware of other art forms beyond their own in 2010 I doubt I'd be very interested in their music.

[kp*]

I like oatmeal is not contestable. It's a stated preference. There is nothing more to say.

Proclaiming that people who eat oatmeal are better than those who don't is contentious and open to debate.

If you can't see that difference then no one is going to be able to talk with you and carry on a reasonably logical conversation. Your failure to see this very fundamental distinction, which holds even though both are opinions, makes trying to engage with you on this thread irritating in the extreme.

It is like you are living in a parallel universe in which normal logic does not apply.

Of course they are both personal beliefs. That is irrelevant. One is a personal preference, one is a blanket statement of fact as you believe it to be true.

[RFKorp]

I get my daily art fix from 4chan.

[Damon_Smith]

I like oatmeal is not contestable. It's a stated preference. There is nothing more to say.

Proclaiming that people who eat oatmeal are better than those who don't is contentious and open to debate.

If you can't see that difference then no one is going to be able to talk with you and carry on a reasonably logical conversation. Your failure to see this very fundamental distinction, which holds even though both are opinions, makes trying to engage with you on this thread irritating in the extreme.

It is like you are living in a parallel universe in which normal logic does not apply.

Of course they are both opinions. That is irrelevant. One is a personal preference, one is a blanket statement of fact.

If I find something to be "better" I just say better. I am not going to re-word it or add IMO, everytime just to make a few people happy. I do understand the difference. Again, picking away at the language doesn't move things forward at all.
Also, I do think my statement is open to debate, so debating the idea and not the language is what is going to be more interesting.

[fuzzycotton]

[quote="Damon_Smith"][quote="faster"]
I think there were some obvious comparisons between Rowe and some abstract artists, though it could be argued that Twombly (who is still pushing and creating VERY contemporary work so the Ornette comparison doesn't really work) is not so abstract.


Why does the Ornette Coleman comparison not work?